HN Gopher Feed (2017-10-17) - page 1 of 10 ___________________________________________________________________
A convicted felon who became a Georgetown law professor
94 points by blegh
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/meet-a-convicted-felon-who-became-a...___________________________________________________________________
acjohnson55 - 2 hours ago
As other people have mentioned, this is only strange because of our
bizarre popular notions of crime and punishment in America.First of
all, we love partitioning people into good and evil sets. If we can
only root out and imprison the evil people (and, btw, give all the
good guys guns), there would be negligible crime.Secondly, we
believe punishment fulfills justice. Despite well documented issues
in applying the death penalty equitably, or even solely to guilty
people, we maintain that heinous crimes must be met with human
sacrifice.And to be honest, I think human sacrifice is literally
what we believe in. When something goes wrong, we require someone
to feel pain. The more permanent that pain, the better. This goes
beyond crime. Look how sports players are immortalized for their
blunders. Look at the mob justice of the Internet. Look at how we
crack down on the vulnerable when the middle class struggles.
microcolonel - 2 hours ago
I think you're extrapolating a lot: this person is the exception,
not the rule.
[deleted]
mulmen - 1 hours ago
I don't see the extrapolation, can you explain that in more
detail?
aaron-lebo - 1 hours ago
He's saying that per the OP:As other people have mentioned,
this is only strange because of our bizarre popular notions
of crime and punishment in America.is extrapolating. This
isn't weird because of notions of justice (cue soapbox), it's
weird because for anyone to become a Georgetown law professor
is incredible, for a convicted felon to do it is difficult to
believe, it's missing the forest for the trees.
avn2109 - 1 hours ago
>> "First of all, we love partitioning people into good and evil
sets. If we can only root out and imprison the evil
people..."Wiser men than us thought the same thing [0]:"If only
it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere
insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to
separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line
dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human
being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"-
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn[0] https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13750
-if-only-it-were-all-s...
mrestko - 13 minutes ago
That's a great quote I've never read before.
rayiner - 1 hours ago
I agree we impose unfair lifetime constraints on former felons,
but even without those this would be a remarkable turnaround.
Almost everyone who clerked with him on the DC Circuit, or
authored briefs the same term in the Supreme Court, or started as
a professor at a top law school, carefully pursued a track that
often started in high school. This guy got his degree while in
prison for a ?real crime? (armed robbery).
throwaway613834 - 50 minutes ago
> And to be honest, I think human sacrifice is literally what we
believe in. When something goes wrong, we require someone to feel
pain. The more permanent that pain, the better. This goes beyond
crime.I don't think it's about human sacrifice. Rather, I think
it's about imposing enough of a punishment to deter other people
from committing the crime. Presumably people committed the crime
knowingly, being aware of the fact that the punishment may go in
such a direction.
[deleted]
ttoinou - 1 hours ago
A podcast with him : https://www.libertarianism.org/media/free-
thoughts/lessons-b...
omegant - 1 hours ago
This article is very
interesting:https://harpers.org/archive/1929/06/whats-wrong-with-
the-rig...I think it has been posted before.As an European the
"though on crime" spirit in the USA is just the oposite to what we
actually have here.Here there are very forgiving laws, short prison
sentences, very soft and polite police attitude against criminals
(compared with what you experience in the USA). Prissons are well
equiped and there it's relatively easy to transition to more open
sentences where you only go to sleep to the prison. A lot of money
is spent in reabilitation, economic help, free university and
courses in the prison, etc...In a way, if you are a law obeying
citizen you feel that you are the fish and the criminals have it
their way. Very unjust, even dangerous as they are able to roam
openly and prey in the innocent. We really wish for harsher laws,
policing and prissons.But the reality is that now a days is
difficult to find a place in a Spanish city where you can be mugged
with a knife or any other weapon. There is almost no perception of
danger in the streets. Last week I was in a dinner with a district
chief in the police. He says there are some property thieves,
mostly youth, but they rarely have to draw the gun, criminals may
run or shout to cops, but they usually don't fight them. They know
they probably are going out of the jail faster than the cop finish
filling the papers, so why bother being violent?.Most criminals are
not hardened psicopaths, and with this method the system removes
hate and tension from the violence spiral(I don't know if this
makes sense).Of course is far from perfect, at the end of the day
some very violent killers and rapists get through this very lax
system creating victims and social alarm, but the overall results
are very very positive for everybody. Felons get a new oportunity,
tax payers save money, citicens get to enjoy a safer city.Talking
about the gun problem in the USA (somebody was blaming guns for th
violence in other comment), it seems to me that the people that is
trying to ban guns are just doing the oposite of what they are
trying to do, they draw more attention to guns, so more people buy
them. This people surely would have ignored them if nobody recalled
them the topic.For example in Spain we have a very vigorous
antibullfighting movement. But I remember perfectly how in the 80s
and early 90s all the bull fighting business men were worried on
how the people had stoped going to the corridas. My grandfather
loved them (I dont) and he watched all of them in the tv. The
plazas were half empty most of the times, and the business was
dying (they even were worried about the loss of the race of toros
bravos that only gets rised for corridas)Then the antibullfighting
movement gained strength and all the people that had been ignoring
the corridas, started paying attention and taking a stance, some
pro, some against. But the net result was a very healthy increase
in the expectator figures of all thing related to bullfighting.In a
way I think it is the same reason Trump got to president, way too
much free propaganda and attention from everybody even if it was
negative.
WalterBright - 1 hours ago
What a great story! Once a person has paid their debt to society,
society should be forgiving and allow the person to have a second
chance.
Unbeliever69 - 46 minutes ago
The active word is "should". Society didn't forgive him. He
worked his butt off, impressed the right people, and is the one-
in-a-million success story of life after a felony. Society as a
whole hasn't changed. He changed.
[deleted]
icebraining - 3 hours ago
Don't spam other stories.
j2kun - 29 minutes ago
Another example is James Kilgore, a convicted (second degree)
murderer/kidnapper/activist who was on the lam and is now a
professor at UIUC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kilgore
wolco - 3 hours ago
This shouldn't be shocking and should be more common.
Ccecil - 1 hours ago
It is difficult to do quite a few things in the US once you are
convicted of a felony.You are limited on grants, student loans,
SBA loans and most programs in areas like the medical field will
not even accept people with criminal backgrounds at all due to
the low likelihood of finding employment post training (when
there is a waiting list felons will be at the bottom).So add on
top of that the fact that most people won't hire a felon...where
do you go. Difficult to find gainful employment, less chance of
training and then you are limited in finding funding for a small
business.Edit: In this world to In the USAlso, housing. Having a
felony can exclude you from rentals entirely. Most property
management companies will not rent to felons regardless of time
since last conviction.
plandis - 2 hours ago
If your idea is that it should be shocking that a former felon
becomes a successful and lawful member of society we are in
agreement.I think it?s improbably to expect felons to write legal
briefs that the SCOTUS examines and it?s also improbable to
expect felons to become law professors are a prestigious law
school.Lots of lawyers will work their entire lives and never
have either of those two situations.
mulmen - 1 hours ago
I read the GP comment as "A story of redemption should not be
uncommon among prisoners". Our goal as a society should be to
make that the norm.
joering2 - 3 hours ago
I agree with that. We supposed to live in society where people
can make mistakes, learn from them and move on. If you stole a
candy at age 14 from a local store, it is surprise to label you
"criminal" at age 35 no?Just because someone did crime and did
time, doesn't mean we should continue treating them like
criminal.
jdmichal - 1 hours ago
Interesting thought experiment: What if records were sealed by
default once judgement has been satisfied? Or, rather, do as
much as possible within the legal system to restore the
individual's previous reputation and status.Some version of
this exists for juvenile records already, because we recognize
that people can grow and learn.I could also see arguments for
allowing the above for misdemeanors but not felonies.
anigbrowl - 1 hours ago
A good approach; the 'ban the box' campaign that aims to
prevent questions about past felonies on employment
applications is a step in this direction.
sushid - 2 hours ago
> If you stole a candy at age 14 from a local store, it is
surprise to label you "criminal" at age 35 no?Where is this
point coming from? If you got caught stealing candy at age 14,
you're not going to become a convicted felon. NEVER. When you
commit an armed robbery, I think it's fair to label someone as
a former criminal.
mulmen - 1 hours ago
I don't think you can reasonably claim that a person who
steals candy at age 14 will never be a convicted felon,
especially when labels tend to stick with people and
influence their later life choices and situation.Where is the
benefit to society in labeling someone a criminal for the
rest of their lives? Are you arguing that prison ought to
have no rehabilitating effect?
[deleted]
vkou - 1 hours ago
What about burglary? Grand theft auto? Stealing bikes?
Starting a barfight? Serial shoplifting? Downloading a few
million documents from JSTOR? Being a street pharmaceutical
sales representative? [1] Missing child support payments
(Jail time definitely helps with your prospects of making the
next payment)?Do all of these brand you with the mark of
Cain, for the rest of your life? If so, why do we even let
criminals out of prison? Haven't they served their time?[1]
One of my acquaintances went from being a drug dealer to a
very successful franchise owner (I met him after he made the
transition.) Prison wasn't the catalyst for him, but getting
shot at by a competitor was. Would we all had been better off
if he were shut off from 'good jobs' for the rest of his
life?
btilly - 50 minutes ago
However if you are caught at 14 with a naked picture of a 13
year old classmate on your phone, you'll become a convicted
sex offender for life.This is not at all hypothetical. I've
seen estimates that 1/4 of all convicted sex offenders were
themselves minors at the time of conviction, and 14 is the
age at which you are most likely to become a registered sex
offender. Which will for the rest of your life affect where
you live, what jobs you can take, and force you to be
registered on a database where your neighbors can see that
you're awful but get no useful information about your
crime.As a parent of pre-teens I'm far more concerned about
them being caught up in this life-destroying lottery than I
am about, say, their being kidnapped if they are so unwise as
to talk to strangers.
donarb - 48 minutes ago
How about at 67? A US citizen living overseas is not being
told that he can't come to the US because of crimes he
committed over 50 years ago.https://www.salon.com/2017/10/16
/alvin-queen-american-born-j...
bdowling - moments ago
"Funny thing, I gave up my U.S. passport to make life
simpler at tax time." (from linked article)It seems that he
renounced his citizenship in order to avoid paying U.S.
income taxes, so I don't think you can call him a "US
citizen living overseas" anymore.
aaron-lebo - 2 hours ago
How common should it be? The overlap between convicted felon (one
extreme of crime) and Georgetown professor (do you know how hard
it is to get into Georgetown law as a student?) is really, really
small.If you are saying that you wish there were more
extraordinary people in the world, nobody is stopping anyone from
doing that.
mulmen - 1 hours ago
Why do you think that number is so small?How many extraordinary
people have had their lives ruined by being asked to conquer
one too many obstacles?This story shows that there is potential
in prisoners and despite the deck being stacked against him
this one person succeeded. How many others would have done the
same if they received support instead of discouragement?
aaron-lebo - 1 hours ago
It's small because Georgetown law professors are the most
elite of elite in society.You could do a random sample of
non-prisoners and you'd get as many potential Georgetown law
professors as in prison.I don't doubt that there are a lot of
prisoners that would thrive with encouragement, but you also
aren't being realistic: the people who end up prison often
end up there because they made a series of very bad choices
which were the result of being raised in an unfavorable
environment. Some people in prison will never be
rehabilitated and they certainly aren't going to became
Georgetown law professors. Prison tends to select for people
who aren't law school material, so the likelihood is not
surprisingly very low. It's not something that can be fixed
by pleading to the better angels of our nature.
cubano - 59 minutes ago
I've been to prison twice and I was raised in a very
favorable environment.These incarcerations have killed my
career and ruined very important relationships.My crimes?
Both were rather low level drug charges where I was guilty
of deep carelessness and rather bad luck more then anything
else.I guess you can call them a "series of bad choices",
but only if you think overzealous US drug laws are a good
thing.
dragonwriter - 47 minutes ago
> I guess you can call them a "series of bad choices",
but only if you think overzealous US drug laws are a good
thing.Ignoring the existence of US drug laws through
?deep carelessness? is a bad choice independently of
whether the US drug laws are a good thing.Even moreso
after having been imprisoned once for that.
Ccecil - 56 minutes ago
I would argue that prisons are full of people who by
percentage know the laws better than most paralegals.One
thing they always have access to is the Law library.
kohito - 58 minutes ago
How many "exceptions" have to come to our attention before we
change the rule?Google Dwayne Betts. He is a tour-de-force. He
wants to dedicate his life to helping others, but despite the life
he has lived since serving his time in prison, he was nearly
prevented from practicing law in the state of Connecticut."In
conversations", he said "lawmakers will look at me and say 'you're
an exception.' Yeah, well, in 2005, I wasn't. And I want to fight
for that guy."You shouldn't have to be as exemplary as Dwayne or
this law professor in order to not be written-off from society.
msla - 41 minutes ago
One of the worst aspects of "conversational racism", the kind of
racism which manifests itself in talking about attitudes and
expression of opinions, is "but they're one of the good ones":
"Oh, I don't like members of group Y, they're all crooks, but I
like that person. They're one of the good ones."It's so bad
because it makes it impossible to refute blanket assertions by
pointing to specific examples. The usual understanding of "the
exception that proves the rule" (not any of the sensical
interpretations of that saying, but the usual understanding of
it) is a broader example of this: I have a blanket assertion, you
disprove it by pointing to a contradictory example, and my belief
in that blanket assertion gets stronger, as opposed to weaker,
due to that thought-terminating cliche.
[deleted]
mschuster91 - 1 hours ago
Makes me wonder how much potential for society is wasted in prisons
every second.Hell, even in Germany we literally send people to jail
for weeks to months for being unable to pay for public transport.
[deleted]
ralmidani - 51 minutes ago
Question for lawyers: is there credibility in arguing that lifetime
denial of employment and voting rights amounts to "Cruel and
unusual punishment"?