HN Gopher Feed (2017-09-25) - page 1 of 10 ___________________________________________________________________
China Blocks WhatsApp
529 points by GuiA
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/business/china-whatsapp-block...app-blocked.html?mcubz=3___________________________________________________________________
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Jerry2 - 3 hours ago
TechAltar made a video few days ago about censorship in China and
what their goals are [0]. He also talked about lengths to which
Mark Zuckerberg went to try to get Facebook, Instagram and WhatsApp
unblocked in China. It was quite shocking.[0]:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swuir_7YIPs
ben_jones - 3 hours ago
The 5 points according to the video:1) Married Priscilla Chan2)
Learned Mandarin3) Joined Tsinghua University4) Befriended
Xijinping5) Offered to let Xijinping name firstbornPersonally I
have trouble believing 1 and 5 were to get Facebook products into
China unabridged. 5 sounds like a joke at a dinner party.
bitmapbrother - 35 minutes ago
I think we have our script outline for The Social Network 2.0
jimmies - 2 hours ago
#5 is really low. I cannot believe someone who did that is a
great person.This guy's baby is just another tool huh?
balls187 - 1 hours ago
The story goes Zuckerberg asked President Xi to give his
unborn baby an Honorary Chinese name.Which still seems gross,
but perhaps less so, given the baby would likely have a more
common American name.
kinkrtyavimoodh - 11 minutes ago
Apparently he asked him for a Chinese name for the child, so
it's more of an honorary thing than anything. The child would
have a non-Chinese name 'regular' name (Max in this case),
and the traditional Chinese name could be sourced from
him.People phrasing it in a scandalous-sounding 'omg he asked
him to name his firstborn' way are reading into it too much.
seanmcdirmid - 1 hours ago
I'm sure Zuck just meant to pick the Chinese name, not the
official English name. My half-Chinese son still doesn't have
one, my wife having rejected my proposal of ??.Even then, I
think this is just Zuck being Zuck, he is a bit socially
awkward and was probably unfiltered genuine here for no
business reason.
HillaryBriss - 2 hours ago
if 5 were true (though i doubt it) it would make for a pretty
sad conversation between Mr. Zuckerberg and their firstborn
some day. i mean, c'mon. have some class. it's a move worthy of
our current president.
Jerry2 - 1 hours ago
>if 5 were trueSadly, it's true:>At a White House dinner in
2015, Mr. Zuckerberg had even asked the Chinese president, Xi
Jinping, whether Mr. Xi might offer a Chinese name for his
soon-to-be-born first child ? usually a privilege reserved
for older relatives, or sometimes a fortune teller. Mr. Xi
declined, according to a person briefed on the
matter.https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/17/technology
/facebook-gover...
HillaryBriss - 1 hours ago
ok. that's interesting. i guess it's fair to question Mr.
Zuckerberg's motives.i say that because i think very very
few people in the US would, given the chance, ask the
leader of a foreign ancestral nation to name their
firstborn child. a grandparent or a close personal friend,
yes, plausibly -- but a political leader you don't even
know?but, maybe there's some sort of qualifying condition
here. maybe what they meant was the child's "Chinese name"
which would be distinct from the child's name for day to
day and legal use?
ChuckMcM - 4 hours ago
This feels to me like the war on the Internet has entered a new
phase.
badosu - 4 hours ago
Next step should be enabling censored services to citizens with
4-star+ social scores.
stuffedBelly - 4 hours ago
reminds me of the 1st episode of the latest Black Mirror
season.
spookyuser - 3 hours ago
It's like a really ugly combination of that episode and the
waldo episode
JigglyGigalo - 2 hours ago
No I expect it to be more like only the rich will be able to
afford the data rate fees that will apply to any Inter-Zone
communications.
r00fus - 3 hours ago
I think I made a prediction earlier on HN about balkanization of
the Internet - I give it till 2025 until all major countries are
in a process of complete segregation.
aaron-lebo - 4 hours ago
Well, at least Mark didn't sacrifice his child for that.What's the
end game here? In the early 2000s it seemed like China was going to
become this liberal democracy, but it just seems like the
government is getting more and more power and control. Is there any
sign this (and the rise of several authoritarians) is gonna
stop?This made me think of Fukuyama (1989):What we may be
witnessing is not just the end of the Cold War, or the passing of a
particular period of post-war history, but the end of history as
such: that is, the end point of mankind's ideological evolution and
the universalization of Western liberal democracy as the final form
of human government.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Histor
y_and_the_Las...That looks really funny in hindsight. He's actually
changed his position:http://www.npr.org/2017/04/04/522554630
/francis-fukuyama-on-...
mikeash - 4 hours ago
I don't think there's any sign it will stop. The standard
prediction used to be that prosperity would bring democracy, but
that's looking to be either wishful thinking or bad extrapolation
from past events.
SirensOfTitan - 4 hours ago
It feels to me that stability brings prosperity, and democracy
represents one of several paths to stability.
azurezyq - 4 hours ago
Democracy and prosperity are orthogonal concepts. I agree both
of them are good but prosperity without democracy exist (China
and in some sense Singapore) and democracy without prosperity
also exists (everywhere).
adventured - 3 hours ago
> prosperity without democracy existThere has never been a
large nation example of that in world history. China has yet
to get there in any broad sense. Further, there are
exceptionally few examples of it, regardless of nation size.
A solid 80% to 90% of the prosperous, well developed nations
use representative government systems, and not a single large
nation that is prosperous at the median doesn't. Most of the
exceptions are smaller, resource nations like Qatar (even
Saudi Arabia hasn't achieved high-level prosperity at the
median, their median income is nearly 1/3 that of the
US).Here's the list of nations that are prosperous at the
median -Democratic: US, Canada, France, Germany, Britain,
Ireland, Japan, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland,
Denmark, Iceland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, Belgium,
Netherlands, Austria, Spain, Israel, South KoreaNot
Democratic: Singapore, Qatar, Kuwait, Brunei, UAEQuestionable
inclusions: Czech, Portugal, Taiwan, Slovenia, Greece,
Estonia, Slovakia; vs Saudi Arabia on the other sideI don't
see how this could be any more blatant.
zabana - 3 hours ago
Are you saying that before democracy appeared (300 or so
years ago) humankind didn't prosper economically,
financially and culturally ?
jerf - 3 hours ago
In the modern sense of the term, they did not. 300 years
ago, almost everyone alive would be considered
catastrophically poor by modern standards, and even the
elites would be considered to have some serious gaps in
their wealth.This is relevant because one of the
perennial questions of history has been "Why didn't high
tech civilization arise centuries or millenia earlier?",
and governance issues like this are at least one of the
defensible answers. Though not the only one by any means.
CuriouslyC - 3 hours ago
People tolerate the authoritarian government because of the
rapid improvements in standard of living. Once living
standards plateau we will see growing unrest and a gradual
shift to a more open government (or a violent revolution).
adventured - 3 hours ago
> The standard prediction used to be that prosperity would
bring democracyThey're about 10-15 years into a widening low
level prosperity. As recently as just ten years ago, their GDP
per capita was still a mere $2,000 and they had ~750 million
people living on less than $5 per day. It's a bit early to call
it on how wider prosperity will impact their government system.
The median income in China is still about 1/20th that of the US
and 1/15th that of Germany or the UK. They haven't reached
wide-spread prosperity in any regard yet (and by prosperity, I
mean they're nowhere near even the second-tier prosperity level
of a Czech or Portugal).
godzillabrennus - 4 hours ago
The whole world is in a giant financial bubble.These acts are
desperate measures to control people because they know how bad
things are going to get.They need to be able to control the
channels of communication to stamp out dissent.
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stevenwoo - 3 hours ago
Small sample size, but I had a close friend in the 90's who came
from China, got her masters and phd here, and still parrotted the
Communist party line when talking about the Tibet or the Tianamen
square massacre or Taiwan - in their view the US is worse in a
lot of ways with native Americans, prisons and treatment of
minorities. She and all of her peers (graduate degrees earned in
the USA) also survived the Cultural Revolution and in spite of
that none of them supported liberal democracy for China.
[deleted]
doglover7869 - 2 hours ago
Anything that harms FB directly or indirectly is a good thing.
EGreg - 4 hours ago
How does the blocking actually happen?What if people used a
decentralized service, that worked over https?
gruez - 4 hours ago
>What if people used a decentralized service, that worked over
https?that sounds great until you realize that most people don't
run tls servers on their computers/phones. so running one would
immediately raise suspicion. not to mention that if they can
block tor/vpn, they can block whatever tls chat service you have
as well.
EGreg - 3 hours ago
Why is running a webserver going to arouse
suspicion?Furthermore, with https authentication, non members
wouldn't even know that a chat is going on.
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throwanem - 3 hours ago
Traffic analysis will tell you that something far from the
norm is going on. You don't need to be able to read packets
to recognize that the pattern is all wrong for an HTTPS
website session. And it's not ordinary for a client machine
or network to be listening for TLS sessions on port 443 in
the first place.
oconnor663 - 4 hours ago
I think peer discovery is still a difficult issue?
EGreg - 3 hours ago
Hasn't it been solved with freenet, perfectdark, and other
darknets and DHTs?
barkingcat - 4 hours ago
The mechanism of blocking is the Internet firewall with deep
packet inspection and protocol sniffing, together with lots of
human intervention and tracking.
stephengillie - 2 hours ago
VPNs stick out like a red flag in Wireshark. Instead of a
variety of small packets going to ports 53, 80, 443, and the
occasional 22 or 3389, coming from random 5-digit ports - all
you see are big packets over port 500.
EGreg - 3 hours ago
What if a common enough encrypted protocol is used to carry all
communication, such as https TLS protocols?
barkingcat - 3 hours ago
It's not a technology problem. Be aware that human operators
are hired specifically for correlating internet traffic with
these kinds of evasions. In the end, unless it's a robot
talking to another robot, all internet traffic in China can
be resolved to people. And people can be arrested or jailed
or killed.Of course, if you want to "go tech" you can go
underground, but being illegal has disadvantages in a state
like china
EGreg - 59 minutes ago
As I see it, a large set of computers all running a
webserver over TLS can form a cryptographic global
consensus (blockchain) for permissionless chat and other
stuff. Sure, someone has to be running these serveds. But
once they are ubiquitous enough, the government wouldn't be
able to stop the chats by arresting / remocing any
percentage of machines short of 90% or so.What kind of
traffic correlations would then be taking place? That
someone is making requests with one of these servers? It's
always hard to arrest a meaningful number of users once the
network itself is resilient, uses a common protocol that
resists deep inspection, and has no major points of
failure.
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kccqzy - 2 hours ago
It?s not just about protocols it?s also about the pattern of
the data: the sizes and timing and other statistical
characteristics of your packets. Tunneled traffic looks very
different from normal web browsing even if you can?t read the
content.
agacera - 4 hours ago
in the beginning of September a chinese guy was arrested for
selling VPN software. you can try ways to bypass the great
firewall, but it is against the law to do that, and in China it
is a good idea to follow the law.http://thehackernews.com/2017/09
/china-vpn-great-firewall.ht...
paralelogram - 4 hours ago
All traffic to/from some IP addresses is blocked, additionally
all Chinese DNS servers respond with random A records when the
domain name is banned, for example: $ host facebook.com
202.97.0.6 facebook.com A 8.7.198.45 $ host
facebook.com 202.97.0.6 facebook.com A
243.185.187.39 $ host facebook.com 202.97.0.6 facebook.com
A 243.185.187.39 $ host facebook.com 202.97.0.6
facebook.com A 46.82.174.68 $ host
facebook.com 202.97.0.6 facebook.com A
59.24.3.173 (202.97.0.6 is an open resolver in China)
ars - 2 hours ago
> additionally all Chinese DNS servers respond with random A
records when the domain name is bannedWhich DOS'd one of my
server when the random IP they picked was mine. Grr.Had to add
a special rule to deal with it.
phonon - 2 hours ago
So you can get around the block if you use 8.8.8.8 for DNS?
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creatrixcordis - 2 hours ago
I visited China for a month and my view is limited, but i do not
think the average Chen in China cares about this, just like the
average John in America doesn't. They are happy to be able to grow
their personal GDP as much as they can. A lot of people there are
part of the waves of the population that are provided incentives to
relocate from rural areas to urban areas. Censorship is their least
concern. They are happy to be able to have access to new products
and start businesses and help their kids develop as best they can.
Throughout my travels in other countries in Asia, i met a few
students which will be going to Chinese universities. One of their
reasons was that Chinese universities have bigger budgets for
research compared to their respective countries. So that was highly
attractive to them in their educational development. From walking
around i got the impression that China inflates their GDP by
constant construction and tear down and construction again. I am
inclined to believe that this happens also in the tech industry.
This churn creates jobs, companies in a loop and makes the economy
look stronger that it actually is. I also saw many empty apartments
and was told about this as well. Imagine how much money China would
loose if people would solely use western alternatives of the apps
they currently use. This GDP churn they have going there could not
be done if your population is using solely western products. I do
think there is an economic reason as well. I happen to like WeChat,
you can do many things with it. I watched this dude i met there buy
a hat from a street vendor and payed her with the app, super easy.
The convenience that is baked in that app is awesome. I wish we had
something like that in the US.
mads - 2 hours ago
I lived in China for many years and you are right. Most Chinese
people reaction will be "Meh.." and they will move on with their
life and just use a VPN if they really really need WhatsApp.A lot
of western people are now probably frantic to get the WeChat
addresses of the Chinese people they only had on WhatsApp, so
they can ensure their production line or development people are
on track.We need them more than they need us. That is the
problem.
the_common_man - 26 minutes ago
> We need them more than they need us. That is the
problem.Actually the problem is that the west has no higher
moral ground than the east. Not a single US person here uses a
chinese app or plans to use one. There is a reason for this.
cousamfee - 2 hours ago
It's not just censorship, China is now openly engaged in economic
warfare of foreign companies within China, closing up the Chinese
economy, and preventing foreign companies from competing
fairly."The Chinese government is blocking South Korean companies
from leaving China while prohibiting assets from being taken out of
China without any standards. In addition, Lotte and other large
South Korean corporations are also having difficulty in their
withdrawal process as the Chinese government demands huge
compensation from South Korean companies restructuring their human
resources management structures...South Korean manufacturers have
been not allowed to bring production facilities back to South
Korea. The Chinese government has banned South Korean manufacturers
from transporting simple production machines to South Korea from
China while designating them as "equipment that adversely affects
the Chinese economy."http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/english/news/na
tional/19352-e...
[deleted]
bluetwo - 4 hours ago
This had not already been blocked?
dukoid - 2 hours ago
I don't get how China can have WTO "Market Economy" status. It's
not just blocking western internet companies, also forced joint
ventures and technology transfers don't sound much like "Market
Economy" to me.... :-/
sureshv - 2 hours ago
Developing nations get a lot of leeway - see India's FDI
restrictions, etc.
rubenbe - 4 hours ago
This is getting really strict.I went to China around 2012:*
Facebook was already blocked* Google and wikipedia magically
stopped working when you searched for "tiananmen"* Gmail worked
fineI returned in early 2017, oh god what a change:* Don't even
think about Facebook* Ironically Facebook messenger worked until my
session expired* No gmail, google at all (don't remember about
Wikipedia)* Whatsapp worked fineAnd now it is even getting
worse....
Mikeb85 - 2 hours ago
I have a friend who's been in China for the last year. Been
talking with him on Facebook Messenger the whole time...
bamboozled - 1 hours ago
It seems strict but maybe it's sensible from a security
standpoint. Why should a foreign country like China allow foreign
owned mass-surveillance systems like Google and Facebook spy on
their citizens?I mean even countries in the EU are taking
Facebook to court over unauthorised online tracking of citizens
[1]. The only difference with China is they have the power to do
something about it, which is skip the legislative overhead and
get straight to the business of blocking access.I disagree with
censorship of this kind; However, I wonder how the US would like
it if the shoe was on the other foot?[1]
https://www.darkreading.com/vulnerabilities---threats/spain-...
plexicle - 38 minutes ago
No one is forcing them to use Google or Facebook. I sure as
hell wouldn't want the US blocking Baidu or whatever. Let me
decide.
yuncun - 4 hours ago
>* Google and wikipedia magically stopped working when you
searched for "tiananmen"Hmm I find this hard to believe because
the massacre is known as the June Fourth Incident. "tiananmen" is
the location, and blocking that would seem a bit strange for
people trying to find directions, etc.
seanmcdirmid - 2 hours ago
If you search for Tiananmen in Google, the first result is 6/4.
Most westerners associate Tiananmen with the event more than
the place.Now if you search for Taylor Swift's most recent
album, TS 1989, well, that's kind of blocked also. Not sure why
:)
yuncun - 1 hours ago
Wow that's hilarious
aeorgnoieang - 4 hours ago
I'd expect them to block "tiananmen", the search of those exact
Latin characters.
cgb223 - 3 hours ago
It?s almost as if they block the massacre in multiple
languagesTiananmen Square is what the massacre is referred to
as in the United States
tinco - 3 hours ago
It might be based more on the results that those sites return
than the query itself. It is just a still existing square. But
if you search "Tiananmen" in English, most results will
definitely be the sort of thing China doesn't want it's
citizens to look at.
NedIsakoff - 3 hours ago
You're looking for the wrong thing. Its the May 35th Incident
now comrade ;p
dmoy - 4 hours ago
Google didn't work for me at all in 2011. The VPN I used worked,
but then stopped after 2015 ish. I now use free roaming on e.g.
t mobile / Google fi / etc which gets around all blocks.
eyeareque - 3 hours ago
L2TP tunneling works when you use an ip address for the vpn
server.
sliverstorm - 4 hours ago
How well does Android work in general if all google services are
blocked? I know Android doesn't technically require google, but a
lot of the features & stuff are entangled, like backup & restore,
contact sync, etc.
rubenbe - 3 hours ago
You cannot reach the Play Store at all. And your phone always
complains about "limited network access", because it cannot
ping the google predefined URL.
sneak - 3 hours ago
Speculation: the #1 mobile OS in the #1 mobile market works
fine, having been tuned by the people who made it for just that
reason.
mtgx - 3 hours ago
That's easy. China has a lot of third-party stores, including
stores of pirated apps. Some phones even come built-in with
some of those stores.As for sync, the Chinese companies selling
there have their own cloud services and whatnot. This isn't an
issue at all.
htrp - 3 hours ago
Barely.... Chinese android phones install a homegrown version
of the play store as almost the entire gplay services framework
doesn't work.
hellofunk - 4 hours ago
I'm curious, what is the difference between "Facebook was already
blocked" and "Don't even think about Facebook", other than 5
years?
mtgx - 3 hours ago
VPNs probably. They've started to crack down on those lately,
too.Also, a random tweet I saw today apparently with a
recording of China's CCTV surveillance system:https://twitter.c
om/0XDEDBEEF/status/912026226658652160No wonder China wants to
be #1 in "artificial intelligence". Surveillance and censorship
are likely the primary motivators for that.
shpx - 3 hours ago
"One of the prominent Chinese VCs, Neil Shen from Sequoia
China, was on the Economist's podcast recently talking about
AI in China. When the host asked Shen about the Chinese
state's use of AI in monitoring the citizens of China, Shen
clammed up. It is an amazing bit of audio (starts around
minute 8.)https://www.acast.com/theeconomistasks
/theeconomistasks-howd...
"https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15017622
FabHK - 51 minutes ago
Given the political environment he faces at home, it was
nearly a bit unfair to put him on the spot like that. The
silence speaks volumes, though. Most meaningful silence
I've heard (?) in a while.
mhh__ - 1 hours ago
I can't read chinese: What kind of data do they have there?
throwanem - 3 hours ago
Wow. That is some Person of Interest-level business right
there.
rubenbe - 3 hours ago
There is no real difference, I kinda wanted to stress that no
site ever gets unblocked (AFAIK).
seanmcdirmid - 2 hours ago
CNN was blocked in 2002 (Tiananmen square was still fresh in
people's minds) and isn't blocked today (CNN is a shadow of
its former self, not very threatening). Ironically, because
CNN was blocked, I started reading New York Times, which
today IS blocked.
abrkn - 3 hours ago
Some WeChat groups relating to cryptocurrency are moving to
Telegram. I wonder how that'll last.
0xbear - 4 hours ago
So brown nosing with comrade Jinping did not have a desired
result. For those not aware: Zuck asked him to name his first born.
Jinping declined. :-)
CamperBob2 - 4 hours ago
Interesting. Got a link that backs up this rather surreal claim?
[deleted]
[deleted]
CamperBob2 - 1 hours ago
Even more interesting: why is it suddenly considered
unacceptable to ask for confirmation of a truly strange report?
grzm - 1 hours ago
I suspect the down votes (which I assume you're alluding to)
are more regarding the wording. "Got a link that backs up
this rather surreal claim?" can read as very aggressive
rather than as a genuine question for more information. Also,
the second result in my DDG query for "zuckerberg child
chinese name" is this link, with the title "Chinese president
snubs Mark Zuckerberg?s request for baby name".http://www.tel
egraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1191066...Variants of
"citation needed", particularly those that appear aggressive
and easily searchable can potentially attract downvotes,
regardless of the actual intent on the part of the poster,
one of the downsides of internet forums where the only
channel of communication is the text itself, stripped of
intonation and body language.
CamperBob2 - 1 hours ago
Good point, I apologize if my post came across as an
aggressive or disbelieving response. That wasn't the
intent. It's objectively surreal, to the extent that
particular adverb can ever legitimately be used next to
that particular adjective, for the founder of Facebook to
ask the Chinese premier for input on his child's name.Also,
typically, asking for an "easily searchable" citation
results in a snarky LMGTFY link, rather than moderation
normally associated with posting goatse links on Slashdot.
It's interesting that this particular question seems to
have hit a lot of peoples' nerves on here.
aodin - 3 hours ago
> At a White House dinner in 2015, Mr. Zuckerberg had even
asked the Chinese president, Xi Jinping, whether Mr. Xi might
offer a Chinese name for his soon-to-be-born first child ?
usually a privilege reserved for older relatives, or sometimes
a fortune teller. Mr. Xi declined, according to a person
briefed on the
matter.https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/17/technology/facebook-
gover...
[deleted]
imron - 3 hours ago
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/china-s-president-x...
meri_dian - 4 hours ago
Edit: This is not a justification or defense of internet
censorship. It is an explanation of why the Chinese public may be
more willing to accept strict government controls than the
West.While most Westerners see actions like this as serious
violations of individual rights, the Chinese are used to such
exercises of control by their leaders. There is a firm historical
basis for similar behavior going back thousands of years, and the
desire for social harmony and stability which in part enables
strict government control through tacit public acceptance is deeply
rooted in Chinese culture.It's important for Westerners to realize
that the Chinese never had a Locke, or a Rousseau, or a Hobbes. The
foundational political philosophy taken for granted in the West has
no parallel in China. Their political philosophy is grounded in a
very different hierarchy of values.
the_common_man - 38 minutes ago
> Edit: This is not a justification or defense of internet
censorship. It is an explanation of why the Chinese public may be
more willing to accept strict government controls than the
West.What are you talking about? The west has completely accepted
surveillance by it's governments. The ideas by Locke, Rousseau,
or Hobbes have 0 effect on western society. If you think western
society is an 'freer', it's only because it's the perfect
illusion created by your echo chamber.
Danihan - 24 minutes ago
That's simply factually wrong. The US has much better press
freedoms, freedom of speech and gun ownership rights than any
other large country.It has nothing to do with an echo chamber.
The laws are objectively very different.Comparing surveillance
by the NSA to information accessibility in general is
disingenuous at best.
the_common_man - 17 minutes ago
> The US has much better press freedoms, freedom of speech
and gun ownership rights than any other country.Any country
that requires and authorizes gun ownership is broken to start
with. That you think this is somehow superior and better is..
I don't know what to say.> Comparing surveillance by the NSA
to access to information in general is disingenuous at
best.What's the difference?
criddell - 3 hours ago
Do you think it's changing? Are young adults in China as
accepting of government controls as their great-grandparents
were?
xeonoex - 50 minutes ago
Anecdotal, but I have a friend who grew up in China but spent
most of his adult life in the US. He's well traveled and his
family is wealthy. I thought his time in the US might change
his views on the (IMO) oppressive Chinese government, but it
has not. He is 100% willing to forgo freedom for ease of life.
He prefers the Chinese culture because being a good citizen is
almost enforced. I've tried to explain the negatives, but he
doesn't seem concerned about anything I brought up.
[deleted]
musage - 1 hours ago
There is no "the" Chinese. There are a lot of individual people,
and if you took a Chinese baby and raised it in an encouraging
way, there is no Chinese gene that would make them timid and
obedient regardless. And just like you wouldn't take, say, an
alcoholic, and say that being an alcoholic is obviously the best
way for them to be, or they wouldn't be one, I don't see how that
is any more sensible with "cultures". I reject it.People hiding
behind each other and in hierarchies is no less dysfunctional
than people plastering over the holes in their souls with
material goods and what have you, and harmony is a complete
stranger to both, at least as I understand it. When I speak with
a human being who wears a saddle of some kind, has some kind of
dirt on their lens, peace enters my mind after the conversation,
after the fake, uptight, unhappy circus leaves town and me with
my mind and the world around me as it is, not as overly fearful
people inside it want me to describe it.
ringaroundthetx - 1 hours ago
Yeah my experience is that Americans lock on to how horrible and
oppressed China must be, "those poor victims", perpetuated and
validated by the Chinese-Americans whose parents came here after
a revolution and have little-to-no connection to life in mainland
China after that point, but the other Americans elevate the
Chinese-American view as more canonical and don't dare to
challenge it. While this stands in direct contrast to a large
proportion of mainland Chinese who don't find the social order to
be controversial at all.
eighthnate - 27 minutes ago
> While most Westerners see actions like this as serious
violations of individual rightsReally? We do. Everyone here
seemed okay with censorship on twitter, facebook, etc.> It is an
explanation of why the Chinese public may be more willing to
accept strict government controls than the West.Where in the
"west" are you? We have censorship and controls in the US. And
last I checked, europe is even worse with their controls.> It's
important for Westerners to realize that the Chinese never had a
Locke, or a Rousseau, or a Hobbes.Britain did and britain is at
the forefront of censorship, control and monitoring of its
population.> The foundational political philosophy taken for
granted in the West has no parallel in China.It's empty words we
used to pretend we are "superior".
terminalcommand - 4 hours ago
IMHO it is not just the hierarchy of values. In Turkey Wikipedia
has been blocked for months, without a court order. The
government man-in-the-middle's its own citizens and makes
wikipedia unreachable. Even if you use a dns, they spoof the dns
and redirect you to their own IP. It seems to me that people do
not care, when it is the internet.The thoughts of Locke,
Rousseau, Hobbes are taught nearly in every university and there
is no culture of conformity. People seem to simply not care, or
are afraid to speak their minds.
DPW_ - 3 hours ago
Apathy is conformity by default.
msla - 4 hours ago
This is very essentialist, and I'll only point out that, prior to
the Renaissance, you could say very similar things about European
cultures.In short, history explains, it doesn't justify. And this
can be explained even better by a closed oligarchy wanting to
stay in power.Edited to add: Modern Western countries have had
experiences with autocracy as well. Do you think there's some
deep cultural reason Germany went Nazi which sets it apart from
France or the UK? How about Spain and Portugal?
[deleted]
metaphorm - 4 hours ago
Chinese philosophical roots include both Confucianism and Taoism,
as well as the imported schools of though associated with
Buddhism, and more recently quite a lot of modern Western ideas
(particularly Marxism).Taoism is anti-authoritarian in the
extreme. Buddhism is significantly more neutral on the subject
but is definitely aligned closely with personal liberation and at
minimum it does not make special exceptions for authorities.
There are many famous incidents involving Bodhidharma trying to
disillusion authority figures about their own authority.So I
disagree with you that there are no Chinese philosophical
traditions that are anti-authoritarian or that promote individual
liberty. There are, but they are losing right now.
FabHK - 57 minutes ago
> Chinese philosophical traditions that are anti-authoritarian
or that promote individual libertyWould you count Mozi/Mohism
among them?And what about after the Han synthesis? Confucianism
and legalism seem to have tempered the anti-authoritarian
Taoist ideas.
whiddershins - 2 hours ago
I think your characterization of Buddhism might be a bit one
dimensional.Tradition Tibetan society, for example, seems very
hierarchical to me.
metaphorm - 1 hours ago
you're correct, there are many many different varieties of
Buddhism. It's more correct to talk about Buddhisms since
it's not just one thing. In the Chinese context though we're
generally looking at Mahayana schools ranging from apolitical
to anti-authoritarian. The Chan/Zen school founded by
Bodhidharma is particularly anti-authoritarian though.
darkhorn - 58 minutes ago
That's why they don't have nice things.
ed - 3 hours ago
They may be used to it, but I strongly suspect (given the
widespread use of VPN's in china) they're not totally cool with
it.
bluetwo - 2 hours ago
China didn't invent communism but somehow they were able to adapt
it to their society.
gerbilly - 3 hours ago
I know you didn't intend your comment this way, but I see it as a
bit patronizing to assume that just because China hasn't produced
a Rousseau or a Hobbes domestically[1], that they couldn't
possibly take new ideas from them.Asia is about a lot more than
social harmony and the mandate of heaven. There is an incredible
diversity of opinion on almost any subject there, just as in the
West.[1] Citation needed.
meri_dian - 2 hours ago
Well they could take new ideas from them, but it's much easier
said than done. The philosophical, historical and cultural
framework that allowed the thought of Rousseau and Hobbes to
spread in the West does not exist in China.Interestingly this
also partly explains why totalitarian Communism spread easily
in China... Chinese culture was conducive to that philosophy.
nv-vn - 2 hours ago
Yes, but what is being said is that Rousseau and Hobbes and
Locke are ingrained in Western culture in much the same way
that Confucianism is ingrained in Chinese culture. Lapses in
the absolute power of Western monarchy opened up a space for an
Enlightenment and gave rise to those new ideals, not to mention
the prior blows that this style of governance had suffered in
the West -- the Magna Carta, more frequent war, rapid losses in
colonial territories, and the growth of Catholicism. The
collapse of Western monarchy was what brought on the
Enlightenment, which then served as a catalyst for further
destruction of that system. China didn't experience hundreds of
years of rebellion against the government, and for a long time
it wasn't openly trading new ideas with the West (whereas the
European countries were tied closely together in a lot of
political matters). For the most part, the Chinese approach to
this power structure was also much, much more defined. Keep in
mind that Europe was largely still connected to Greco-Roman
history, and these basic cultural foundations called for
democracy and republicanism rather than an absolute social
harmony.In the context of today, it's important to remember who
the teachers and adults in China are: people who grew up under
the Communist government. And with more respect towards the
older generation, historically China has had a hard time
rebelling against social norms ingrained in their culture.
Trying to do away with Confucianism isn't a question of how
many people are involved when the elders were all indoctrinated
in those ideas by a Communist regime. Even if half the young
population of China had independently stumbled upon papers
describing these Western cultural values, spreading the idea is
impossible when it goes against the CPC's core values, defies
the ideas of the older generation, and is completely foreign
from what was taught in school.The fundamental difference
between the West and China here is that China has always been
under a strong, conservative leadership that these ideas have
not been able to permeate. To think that China could simply
pick up ideas from Western philosophy misses the point.
gerbilly - 4 minutes ago
In that framework how do you explain the cultural revolution,
and the inversion of power that resulted from that?Younger
red guards denouncing their elders, the attempt to get rid of
the four 'olds' doesn't seem like a particularly conservative
or Confucian agenda to me.If it were impossible for this kind
of thought to take root in China, I doubt that this movement
could have gotten off the ground.The right time to judge
whether the Chinese people really value social harmony more
than the west does is when economic growth stalls or even
reverses for a decade or so.
meri_dian - 2 hours ago
Thank you, very well said.
dmix - 3 hours ago
> It's important for Westerners to realize that the Chinese never
had a Locke, or a Rousseau, or a Hobbes.Neither did South America
but they were inspired by all of them when they formed their
modern republics after the various revolutions, after kicking out
the Spanish rulers in the 1800s the military generals had a
choice to form democracies and they sought inspiration from
Europe, just as America did a century earlier...Almost every
European country had a legacy of monarchy, Japan with their
Empire, etc. There's a long history of centralized control in
every culture. Why is China unique?The problem is China went the
authoritarian route, the party defines the culture, it's not a
natural phenomenon of the people. It won't matter if there is a
shift towards liberalism when people don't have a choice.Not to
mention Hong Kong and Taiwan aren't far from China's core culture
yet they respect liberalism. Chiang-kai Shek could easily have
won the war against Mao and it's entirely possible their culture
would look a lot more like South Korea or Japan and less
"Chinese".People downplay the complete and total effectiveness of
government controlled media and propaganda campaigns. This idea
that Chinese culture is just different from the 'west' is exactly
what is forced down the Chinese people's throats, it's the party
line - not an original concept. The "chinese way" is what they
constantly use to justify their repressive actions. While any
time anything bad happens in the West they promote those acts
widely in the media as examples of the flaws of the western
worldview, while thoroughly suppressing their own flaws... so I'm
highly suspicious when I hear this excuse.
raquo - 36 minutes ago
The last paragraph also happens to perfectly describe how
Russia works. All exactly the same.
tryingagainbro - 3 hours ago
Serious question: what would happen if China abolished the
Communist Party or whatever they call and chose democracy.
Chaos? Breakdown of the country into separate states
/provinces? Civil war? Military rule?I would not want to the
one in charge the day after. Obviously (moderated) rule by the
people is best but not sure how China and say countries in the
mold of Saudi Arabia will handle it.
frandroid - 2 hours ago
What is "China" in this case? Its government is the
Communist Party. It's not going to abolish itself!The
question to ask, if you want China to change, is to ask how
would the Chinese Communist Party lose its grip on power.
That would probably need to happen following an economic
crisis. However, looking at how badly the Chavistas are
driving Venezuela into the ground these days, and how much
they're able to hold onto power, you can see that it's not
easy to get rid of a government with a lot of resources. The
boiling frog theorem applies here. A sudden shock, sudden
famine, sudden economic turmoil is what's most likely to
create the conditions of regime change.
KGIII - 1 hours ago
To take the analogy a bit further with the boiling frogs,
the frogs jumped out of the water, until Goltz removed the
brains from the frogs.So, how does that relate to China?
Well, if they still have brains, they will reach a tipping
point as the water warms. More closely, so long as they
have access to information (I think) they will eventually
decide that enough is enough.So, then the question is do
they have enough information? Do they have enough freedom
to communicate with each other?It's hard to say. I've been
to China and I think the answer is actually an affirmative.
They have plenty of information. They all know about the
GFW, the censorship, and how it is different than the West.
They don't appear to be under any illusions.I've spoken, in
person, with multiple people in China and they all know
those things, as well as being up to date with their
current local and national politics. It's hard to describe,
but they just seem to accept it. I don't want to say they
see it as a good thing, but they all pretty much say that
it is for the national harmony.They know about Tianamen
square. They even have a special word for censorship -
river crab, though I forget the reason. They know about the
death penalties. They know about the corruption of local
and national politicians. They seem to be as aware of their
politics as much as we are aware of our own, maybe even
more so.It's a different mentality, I guess? They accept it
and think it helps promote social harmony. It wasn't easy,
and still isn't, for me to get my head around.
dmix - 2 hours ago
> What is "China" in this case? Its government is the
Communist Party. It's not going to abolish itself!I've read
that something close to 1/3rd of the Chinese population is
a member of the party or whose livelihood directly depends
on it in some fashion where they are essentially a
member.So this is a very good question.
adventured - 3 hours ago
India with its 1.3 billion people is capable of operating via
a Democratic system (with its various issues and flaws not
detracting from that fact), and they're even poorer than
China and with fewer resources. There's no reason China can't
manage a successful (even if messy) transition away from
authoritarianism to a variation of representative government.
testestx - 1 hours ago
They could do it, but the current leadership doesn't seem
interested.
Nomentatus - 17 minutes ago
Corruption is worse in India than China, and that's problem
one. Not coincidentally, growth in India has generally been
slower (until recently) and just dropped. And India may be
devolving into a theocracy. Not the most attractive
example.
nv-vn - 16 minutes ago
Keep in mind that Hong Kong was a British colony for 150+ years
(contiguous minus the Japanese occupation during WWII). The
fact that Hong Kong represents liberal Western values should
surprise nobody. While the PRC represents much of Chinese
philosophy and has mandated it be taught to its citizens, the
leaders of Hong Kong were never in this mindset. The British
Crown was above China, and thus people learned more about
Western ideals. Even today, Hong Kong is mostly autonomous and
it makes sense that its people would continue supporting the
ideas that they have been taught or have lived under in the
past.As for Taiwan, I think it is important to remember that,
while Chiang Kai-Shek was seemingly "less Chinese" than Mao,
the two had many similarities. Like Mao, Chiang Kai-Shek was a
believer in socialism and nationalism, with his own cult of
personality. He also was responsible for his own purges early
on and was very much a dictator. While he had support from many
international countries, he was only slightly more liberal than
Mao (which probably had to do with a number of factors, but I
think it's important to note that he was educated in Japan at
one point). It was not until after his death that Taiwan became
democratic, and I think one of the reasons for this was because
Taiwan had aligned itself with Western countries when it was
driven out of mainland China. Had the ROC won and the PRC lost,
I don't think much would be different here. It's possible to
say that the fact that the ROC was anti-communism contributed
to these changes, but Chiang Kai-Shek was by no means a
supporter of democracy. To me it seems like the deciding factor
for Taiwan becoming less authoritarian was almost certainly due
to their defeat, and that the PRC would very likely follow in
those same footsteps had the roles been reversed.That all is to
say that, despite the differences between Hong Kong/Taiwan and
mainland China, the PRC is extremely representative of Chinese
culture. The modern values of Taiwan and Hong Kong are
obviously very different, but had different circumstances
played out (Taiwan winning/Hong Kong becoming an independent
Chinese state rather than becoming a colony) I do believe that
these countries would end up nearly identical to modern China.
jackpirate - 2 hours ago
>Neither did South AmericaWhat are you talking about? South
America was colonized by the Portuguese and Spanish, which most
definitely come from the western liberal tradition.It's fine to
take a position against "Chinese culture", but it should be an
honest one.
dmix - 2 hours ago
I'm basing that off a book I read which described how the
original liberators of South America (who were mainly locals,
not from the Spanish or Portuguese elite who ruled) were
heavily influenced by these (mainly French and English)
liberal European thinkers - which is why they wanted a
revolution in the first placed. It didn't come from local
culture.The Spanish did not create liberal "western"
democracies when they ruled. They were replacing a
monarchical, heavily centralized system and the liberators
had a choice in how they modelled their country. They
certainly considered many different options including heavily
centralized systems but the influences of European thinkers
as mentioned above played a big role in their decision to
build republics and federalized states.My point is that many
cultures (including Japan and South Korea) came from a legacy
of centralized control and were still capable of being
inspired by foreign thinkers and adopting liberal
systems.This idea that China is unique because they didn't
have their own bastion of local liberal thinkers is heavily
flawed because that pattern exists elsewhere with different
outcomes. Especially considering how close Chiang-kai Shek
was to moving China towards a more western economic system.
It wasn't the 'Chinese way' that won out, it was a series of
politically fortunate events in Mao's favour.The Chinese
culture is a product of a self-protecting centralized system,
not (merely) a product of the historical culture.
probe - 2 hours ago
If you look a bit further into Chinese history, it makes sense
why they're so hesitant of the west - China was literally
screwed over by the West for almost a century (see Century of
Humiliation, the Opium Wars, Unequal Treaties, having British
military in their capital, etc.). They went from being a leader
of the world to being treated like crap by the West in a fairly
short time period. This idea of "Chinese Exceptionalism" came
from this innate desire for China to be unique again (the
original "Make X Great Again").Mao's success I think reinforced
some the idea that the only way for China to stand on its own
was to be united and strongly controlled and maintained. The
hundreds of years of having different clans pre-Mao (or weak
dynasties like Qing) just didn't work.While I might not
completely agree with their arguments, it's worth understanding
Chinese criticism and their skepticism of the West. China is
literally 4x the size of the US with a very rich and
complicated history and thinking, so we can't just assume you
can put in Western democracy/thinking just like that. Sure a
lot of it may be encouraged by the party, but I think a lot of
is much deeper than that.
jrmurad - 3 hours ago
> the Chinese never had a Locke, or a Rousseau, or a HobbesHow
about Lao-Tzu? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi
justaman - 3 hours ago
Perhaps you could give examples as to how they are similar?
Jach - 3 hours ago
I wonder if the intent is to compare their outputs directly,
or to point out that China has its history of great writers
just like the West.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_classics is a nice
list.)
camus2 - 1 hours ago
> the Chinese are used to such exercises of control by their
leadersWhen was the last time the Chinese elected their leaders?
the fact that they are "used" to this doesn't mean they approve.
If there is a consensus, then let the Chinese people sanctify it
with a democratic vote.
kome - 3 hours ago
What about Telegram?
miaklesp - 1 hours ago
Was blocked two years ago
amadvance - 2 hours ago
I interact daily with colleagues from China, and I think it's a lot
more problematic to have work resources blocked than WhatsApp.They
cannot even do a simple search with Google. It's frustrating for
me, I can only imaging how is for them. I'm even worried to raise
the issue to not jeopardize their jobs.Really sad.
sethbannon - 4 hours ago
Duplicate of this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15332147
hellofunk - 3 hours ago
If that other link (yours, I see) actually had discussion, this
might be a useful contribution to post here. But it doesn't.Sorry
mate, your submission didn't catch the fire of the kindling; no
need to repost it here.
WhitneyLand - 1 hours ago
It's interesting that for so long there was conventional wisdom
suggesting a large reason the Soviet Union economy failed due to
inefficiencies of communism and oppression.We now know not only did
that not stop China, it's not clear that the ceiling of economic
success of their system has been determined.
rubber_duck - 52 minutes ago
China has a market economy - more government controlled and
regulated than the west - but it's not centrally planned economy
like the Soviet Union. They tried that in the past - google Great
Leap Forward to see how it ended up.
spullara - 1 hours ago
We (the US) have to start treating the blocking of our internet
applications as trade embargoes. They are the future of our
economy.
ProfessorLayton - 3 hours ago
I wonder if steganography + encryption will be the way past
internet censorship.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography#Dig
ital_messages
mads - 2 hours ago
Big news. Which one are safe now (in US and China)? Telegram??I
remember back in the days, when you wrote "fuck" in Skype from
China and it would get censored. Which one is a trusted messenger
these days?
FabHK - 38 minutes ago
Signal. Maybe Wire.
Crontab - 3 hours ago
It?s like China and England are competing to see who can have the
least amount of Internet freedom.
cybertronic - 3 hours ago
oh, but England "had Locke,... or a Hobbes" (see comment above)
Animats - 3 hours ago
Naomi Wu's comment on China's surveillance: "That's basically the
social contract. Someone grabs your purse, you go to the police
station, they show you the video, usually catch them. ... Honestly,
I hear more anger on Weibo/Wechat when there's not camera footage
of a crime than any unhappiness over cameras on the street
etc."[1][1] https://twitter.com/realsexycyborg?lang=en
HillaryBriss - 2 hours ago
the UK does tons of video surveillance of public spaces. much
much more than the US, where cameras are often low-res garbage,
broken or hacked for use in botnets.
Animats - 1 hours ago
In the UK, if you're robbed can you go to a police station,
see the video, and get the cops started on finding the robber?
HillaryBriss - 1 hours ago
i don't know about that.i do know that some UK police
departments have officers watching some public spaces in real
time. they can sometimes recognize and intercept known
offenders before a crime
occurs.https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/may/06/ukcrime1
mrtron - 2 hours ago
I have several friends who have said that they feel more safe
walking around alone at night due to the cameras, when compared
to major north american cities.
geff82 - 2 hours ago
Thou-Shall-Not-Do-Business-With-Dictatorships!
Bouncingsoul1 - 3 hours ago
I'm currently on a buisness trip in china, had to switch to wire
which is still working.
ausjke - 3 hours ago
there is an extra but critical reason that I somewhat know why the
censorship is getting tougher these days, it has something to do
with https://twitter.com/kwokmilesthis guy is nowadays' Don
Quixote, one person against a powerful government and really made a
crack there, this battle has been on for 8 months and it gets more
and more interesting as he is challenging the most powerful group
of men in China with corruption evidence gathered over the
years,each case is weighted more than 100 billion dollars wealth.to
give you two incidents over the last 8 months: 1. VOA(voice of
america) live interview with him was stopped in the middle as the
leaked info is too strong. 2. youtube was DDOS-ed-to-death for a
while when he started live streaming two months ago, which is said
never happened before.
victornomad - 4 hours ago
Last year I went to China, wanted to show a web project I had in
internet and it didnt work at all.My hosting was working perfectly
and not blocked at all since I could SSH there. Then I realized
that I had some jquery loading from a Google CDN and of course the
cdn was banned there. And of course CSS fonts from google and
youtube videos didnt work either...I learned 2 lessons.1) dont rely
on CDNs if you want to have global access. Host everything your
self and check that your hosting or any of the mirrors can be
accessed everywhere.2) How long Google tentacles are (and we always
keep forgetting)...
islanderfun - 2 hours ago
Seems like the "lessons" you learned was to blame others for what
the Chinese government did.- Google being blocked in China is out
of their control regardless of their "tentacles". It's well know,
try another CDN.- As already mentioned, don't use a CDN for the
purpose CDNs exist. Thats really baffling to me.Sorry, this post
wasn't so productive but I'm really confused by OP.
kuschku - 1 hours ago
Yup, and this makes it even more problematic that Google is
forcing us developers to use their services more and more on
Android.There are users in other countries, users in corporate
intranets, users on Amazon Kindle devices, users on open source
Android ROMs.None of these will have access to the required
Google services.But we can?t make apps without them anymore.
godot - 1 hours ago
There are many other "official" jquery CDNs (well, there is a
real official one by jquery powered by someone else, and there
are Google/Microsoft/etc. ones which are listed on:
http://jquery.com/download/). Just don't use the Google one and
you're ok. If you're worried about future blocks, just keep
monitoring (there are services that tell you if a domain is
blocked in China or not), and switch your jquery CDN if one is
blocked. Microsoft one is almost surely going to be OK (at least
for a long time).
kinkrtyavimoodh - 3 hours ago
> dont rely on CDNs if you want to have global accessSo don't
rely on CDNs for their primary purpose?
nilved - 1 hours ago
Yes.
pducks32 - 1 hours ago
Or just don?t worry about China.
Joking_Phantom - 3 hours ago
WeChat is the replacement for WhatsApp, fully compliant with
Chinese censorship controls.What's mildly disturbing is that many
Chinese Americans, both American citizens and not, living in the US
use WeChat. They use it because of their cultural and social ties
with China. Chinese tourists as well have had increasingly better
integration inside the US as well, which would only serve to spread
the usage of WeChat to anyone who interacts with Chinese tourists.
Tencent is slowly but surely gaining a foothold inside the United
States as they roll out more features abroad that made it popular
in China.Are they suspect to these controls as well, despite not
being within China? More importantly, whats the legal status of a
Chinese corporation with the capability of invading its users
privacy under Chinese law, if some users are neither not in China
or not Chinese citizens?
the_common_man - 29 minutes ago
Well, it's all perspective. What's greatly disturbing is that
people in US giving all their data to corporations to mine and
monetize... Everyone using gmail and this ends up with _my_ data
(as a non-gmail user) being mined. US startups have also turned
pretty much every website into a wormhole for tracking
users/visitors.Atleast, in china, there is none of this
advertising BS.
Joking_Phantom - 9 minutes ago
I won't dispute this - the private sector is composed of people
just as the government is, and their attachment of sensitive
data to vulnerable identifying information is just as abhorrent
and many times more dangerous than anything the federal
government could ever do.In my mind, the novel problem here is
that the Chinese government can use such information in order
to socially police people that nominally aren't under their
control. Google in Europe or America has no desire other than
to collect info for commercial purposes, and there is no
inherent desire to turn over private information to any
government.WeChat in America constitutes a potential extension
of Chinese governmental control onto American citizens. This
can be something as innocuous and reasonable as the denial of
visas due to certain communications, or something worse.
American citizens may get their Chinese friends and relatives
in trouble for something they say. A few cases of these, and
suddenly half the American WeChat user base knows they have to
watch what they say unless they don't care about people they
know. Moving out of the platform is not an option due to
network effects.China has long maintained that foreign tech
services offer an opportunity for foreign countries to subvert
their information controls, and has banned thousands of domains
and companies under the guise of protection from foreign
influence, commercial or gubernatorial. What's to say that
China won't turn around and do the same thing to other
countries?To your point about no advertising BS in China, well
you'd be right if it were 20 years ago. Unfortunately,
advertising has become a booming industry in China. Take a walk
in most significant Chinese cities, and you'll find the
constant bombardment of information to be more garish than any
American counterpart. The Chinese Internet is no different.
seanmcdirmid - 2 hours ago
The only users of WeChat have strong ties to China, and use it
for those ties (e.g. WePay). Even in HK and Taiwan, WeChat is not
used outside of those reasons.WeChat working in the US is like
UnionPay working in the US. Ya, its great if you are a Chinese
tourist or an expat with a Chinese bank account, but it is
irrelevant if you aren't, UnionPay isn't going to start taking
over the American ATM card market.
yourapostasy - 1 hours ago
> Even in HK and Taiwan, WeChat is not used outside of those
reasons.Before someone asks, the approximate equivalent of
WeChat in Taiwan is Line. Don't know what it is in HK.
PresidentObama - 36 minutes ago
The equivalent of WeChat in HK is WhatsApp.
seanmcdirmid - 56 minutes ago
Even that isn't really accurate. Wechat is an app ecosystem,
it is as much like Google Play as it is like WhatsApp. Also,
Facebook and google services remain popular in greater china
outside of the mainland.
justboxing - 3 hours ago
> By blocking the heavily encrypted WhatsApp service while making
less secure applications like WeChat available to the public, the
Chinese government has herded its internet users toward methods of
communication that it can reliably monitor.How could they possibly
monitor millions of messages sent per hour? Even if they have some
ML / Bot, what are the odds that they'll miss some protest, or
plot??
grzm - 3 hours ago
> Even if they have some ML / Bot, what are the odds that they'll
miss some protest, or plot??Do they need 100% accuracy for it to
be effective? Nothing of this sort is, and that's accepted as
part of using it. Of course people work to minimize false
positives and false negatives, but it's understood that they
can't be reduced to 0.
[deleted]
[deleted]
bryananderson - 3 hours ago
This event is an amazing lesson in what China's rulers see as their
interests and how they pursue those interests.Over the last several
decades, these rulers have done a lot to open China to the world
and lift the totalitarian restrictions of Maoism.This process has
been the greatest poverty reduction program of all time, and thus
it would be easy to mistake it for altruism, or at least a belief
in governing in the common interest.This theory, however, fails to
explain much of the Chinese leadership's behavior, and I submit
that self-interest is a superior theory.The wealthier and stronger
China becomes, the wealthier and stronger its rulers become. Thus
it is generally in the rulers' interest to make China wealthier and
stronger.But if something would make China wealthier and stronger,
but could loosen the ruling clique's grip on that wealth and
strength, then it is against the rulers' interest and they will act
to prevent it.This is why China often acts as though it values
technological leadership, but continually takes measures such as
these, which undermine that leadership.The result, as several in
this thread have pointed out, is that China will not soon be the
world's leader in cutting-edge technology.But China will still be
rich. And China will still be strong. And China's rulers will still
be in power.
tonyedgecombe - 2 hours ago
And China's rulers will still be in power.I wonder. When the
inevitable downturn comes the population won't have the option of
voting out the current government. They may well turn to other
means.
splintercell - 2 hours ago
This almost always happens. Because in order to achieve what
they have achieved, they had to give their citizens a certain
amount of freedom.Generally when the new generation becomes old
enough , it would have never seen why people are afraid of the
rulers so much, then it becomes a situation of a
showdown.Though it doesn't always have to end with a bloody
outcome, for instance Spain went from dictatorship to democracy
quite peacefully after it's dictator died in 1975.
dv_dt - 2 hours ago
China is still in the range of development where it's pretty easy
to make the case that raising the wealth of its people aligns
with increasing the power and wealth of its rulers. An
interesting question is how long those interests stay merged.I
suspect it isn't ultimately driven from a political power
calculation, but on what areas of open growth are available.
Cutting off WhatsApp keeps open growth available in that area
internal to the nation. But as areas close off and get filled,
economies have to start making harder choices about where to put
effort. It's easy to commit to long-term society wide efforts
when it's easy to forsee improvements _and_ personal profits. But
as choices get harder to forecast and make good on, will China
start looking shorter term and with a more narrowly focused self
service scope as many western economic leaders have done.
chaostheory - 3 hours ago
What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class further
cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and future
growth. Interesting and useful things are made when people able
share and consume information. e.g. Jack Ma's US visit exposed him
to Yahoo. Ma Huateng was clearly inspired by his exposure to ICQ.
The list goes on. The same thing happens in the West but it happens
a lot more often since there are a lot more opportunities to share
ideas with much fewer restrictions.The end result is that China's
fate as being relegated to being the world's giant copy machine is
sealed unless things revertThe people who will get ahead in China
in the future are the ones who are somehow able to live outside of
China to experience new ideas. This is already true, but its
importance will grow as China's censorship grows.The more China
closes up, the less Western companies have to fear about future
tech dominance or crazy innovation from China in the long runTo be
fair, things may even out since Western governments seem to be
doing all they can to copy China's censorship and gov control.
SOPA, PIPA, SESTA, and the Digital Economy Bill come to mind. I'm
sure others can add more to the list.
bitcuration - 3 hours ago
China does have one hope, the need of censor will drive its
technology innovation and even takes the bulk of its economy GDP.
As you hinted China's leading censorship will inspire the world
how much human can revert the process of internet, un-internet is
what China will make its name for.
KGIII - 1 hours ago
Tithe GFW has been around since 1998. I'm not sure it's going
to eat the bulk of their GDP and it doesn't appear to have
stopped them from innovating.It's a horrible idea, don't get me
wrong, it is just that it doesn't look like it is going to be
the end of them.
hhw - 1 hours ago
China has a long and proud tradition as being at the forefront of
civilization, and they see the last 100+ years or so just as a
temporary setback. The current ruling class may not see the need
to share with the outside world. This may sadly result in the
decline of China's competitiveness on the world stage, but those
in the ruling class may be more concerned with consolidating
their power within the country. This is not a new problem for the
Chinese; it's just repeating the cycle of every dynasty that came
before.On a separate note, Whatsapp has been copying WeChat's
features rather than the other way around for years. So perhaps
China thinks they can innovate enough on their own to match or
outpace the outside world. While I don't think that's impossible,
I don't think they've taken into account how much the cultural
revolution wiped out a lot of culture and collective wisdom built
up over the centuries, and that will put them at much more of a
disadvantage than they realize.
iliketosleep - 2 hours ago
This situation is more nuanced that you might think. They are not
preventing everybody from gaining access to outside ideas. In
fact, they are actually encouraging their top students to spend
time at elite universities abroad; they are aggressively pushing
for more "partnerships" with top Western universities.
Additionally, they have special Internet lines for approved
entities, giving unrestricted access. In theory, selectively
giving access to information this way is the best of both worlds;
protecting the masses from "dangerous" foreign ideas that might
challenge the Party's authority, whilst still gaining full
advantage of the west's technical progress. In fact, what they've
taken from the West has enabled their surveillance state. Western
governments have being underestimating China for years, at their
own peril. Sadly, China has not underestimated the West's thirst
for money, and has used this to their own advantage.
[deleted]
zitterbewegung - 3 hours ago
I think the blocking of foreign corporations also serves as a way
to eliminate competition for services that are created inside the
country. Obviously they would be able to pressure the in country
services to do whatever they want.
chaostheory - 3 hours ago
You're right. There's definitely protectionism, but imo moves
like limiting VPN's go beyond that.
chrischen - 3 hours ago
A lot of people use VPNs to access foreign services. It's
quite popular to use Instagram in China, even though it's
blocked.
fspeech - 1 hours ago
Just for context, Chinese made 122 millon overseas trips last
year https://www.travelchinaguide.com/tourism/2016statistics/outb
...The censorship of social media is mainly to prevent collective
action:"The study showed that, contrary to western conventional
wisdom, Chinese social media is as raucous and chaotic as it is
everywhere else, so the Daily Mail?s idea of a country full of
timid, faceless people with only banal opinions is baloney.The
study also revealed, though, that these outlets are ruthlessly
but astutely censored: what gets taken down, apart from the usual
suspects such as Falun Gong, pornography, democracy etc, are any
posts that could conceivably stimulate collective action, even
when the posts are favourable towards the government. You can say
more or less what you like in China, in other words, as long as
nothing you say might have the effect of getting people out on to
the streets."https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/2
2/chines...
micaksica - 3 hours ago
> The people who will get ahead in China in the future are the
ones who are somehow able to live outside of China to experience
new ideas.So in other words, the ruling class continues to rule,
as they will be the only ones with the sanctioned political
freedoms to study abroad, etc.> China's fate as being relegated
to being the world's giant copy machine is sealed unless things
revertChina being the world's giant copy machine has worked very
well for those in power in China. Why not sustain that as long as
possible? What other country has the stability and resources to
replicate that? Most countries with extremely cheap labor don't
have the supply chain.
bad_user - 3 hours ago
China might build their own products and I can see them
building WhatsApp alternatives, but I won't install Chinese
alternatives to WhatsApp on my phone, which means the Chinese
won't be able to talk with me, an European, all the while I'm
communicating without issues with acquaintances from all over
Europe and the U.S.This means that the Chinese are living in a
bubble. This isn't news of course.But the other issue is that
they can't attract much foreign talent to relocate there, like
Europe and the U.S. have historically done. Because they don't
have a culture friendly to immigrants, but also because their
environment is toxic for those of us that are accustomed to
liberal democracies.And their "copy machines" are actually
racing against the clock, as more and more factories get fully
automated and thus relocated home, not to mention their rising
middle class, thus their cheap labor advantage will eventually
go away. So when multinational companies will no longer
assemble their products in China, what will they copy?Of
course, their middle class are now sending their children to
western schools and many of them will probably go back to
China, but on the other hand the best and brightest end up
having the choice to stay in the west and many of them will.
tesseract - 2 hours ago
> And their "copy machines" are actually racing against the
clock, as more and more factories get fully automated and
thus relocated home, not to mention their rising middle
class, thus their cheap labor advantage will eventually go
away. So when multinational companies will no longer assemble
their products in China, what will they copy?There's more to
this than just being a provider of manufacturing services for
overseas consumer goods companies wishing to outsource
production. China has pursued a policy of forcing Western
heavy-industry companies (infrastructure, aerospace, etc.)
wishing to do business in China to form joint ventures with
domestic Chinese companies which then serve as a means of
transferring expertise to the Chinese companies. The Western
companies go along with this because it's preferable to being
shut out of the Chinese market altogether.For example,
Chinese high speed trains were initially based on imported
designs (both the Shinkansen and European trains) built by
joint ventures between the original makers and Chinese
companies. But today China is domestically producing high
speed trains using technology copied from those original
ones.
mattmurdog - 2 hours ago
They already have an alternative it's called WeChat. Maybe
other people should install that instead?
FabHK - 2 hours ago
It's way more powerful than WhatsApp, too (location based
chats, payments, etc.). And, of course, it's not E2E
encrypted; just the opposite, you can assume that it's
being wiretapped/monitored.Thus, please don't install it.
086421357909764 - 2 hours ago
WeChat acknowledged the monitoring :(http://www.moneycont
rol.com/news/business/companies/wechat-c...
micaksica - 2 hours ago
> you can assume that it's being
wiretapped/monitored.This can be assumed with any
technology stack that is popular, domestically-grown, and
well-established in China.I have WeChat installed. Would
I use it to converse with people outside of China? No.
But casually, it's what's accepted there, what people ask
you for, and what everyone's using.
FabHK - 2 hours ago
Sure, I might use it myself if I'd return to China, but
I'd hate for it to become the default chat app outside
China - that's what I meant with "please don't install
it"...> This can be assumed with any technology stack
that is popular, domestically-grown, and well-established
in China.Agreed.
taobility - 2 minutes ago
I just wondering, for normal people, what kind of
information you concerned to not be monitored, seriously?
I knew most western take the privacy higher than
anything. But for most normal people living outside of
US, they really don't care. You would say they are dumb,
but they care more about food, entertainment than the
privacy, and liberal. To be honesty, nobody in China
cared WhatsApp be blocked or not. As maybe 99.9999%
Chinese even don't know there is an App called WhatsApp.
varjag - 2 hours ago
So far they had little success convincing the rest of the
world using the tech that only a Communist mother would
love.
threatofrain - 2 hours ago
I don't think it'll be a contradiction for China to create a
special city with more liberal values to attract liberal
talent, or if China permits liberalism in a controlled
context. Tech talent such as Andrew Ng already go to work in
China knowing the political context surrounding China. I'm
sure some HN people go to work in Dubai, which I'm sure has
some contradictions to western cultural values.I'm also not
sure if the perceived ingredients for collective creativity
are all that obvious or as critical as you seem to say.
Perhaps competition is the most important ingredient, as
opposed to freedom of political speech. And perhaps a well-
educated aristocracy can nurture technological competition
without also being afraid of it.
pavlov - 2 hours ago
> I don't think it'll be a contradiction for China to
create a special city with more liberal values to attract
liberal talent, or if China permits liberalism in a
controlled context.Hong Kong has been the test laboratory
for what the Communist Party calls ?One country, two
systems?. It doesn?t seem like the regime is very happy
with the experiment, or would be looking to expand it.
asteli - 1 hours ago
I would argue that this has been happening for a long
time.Example - China's Special Economic Zone program.
Districts which have lowered administrative and regulatory
barriers, specifically designed to attract foreign capital.
Shenzen's SEZ has existed since the 1980's.And that's not
to speak of the numerous foreign enclaves that have existed
throughout the years, from Hong Kong , the International
Settlement and later the French Concession in Shanghai, and
the numerous foreign districts that have popped up more
spontanously (e.g. Jing'an, Shanghai)
FabHK - 30 minutes ago
> I can see them building WhatsApp alternativesAnd maybe
later they might even build alternatives to Google, Twitter,
and eBay!/sarcasm - please check out WeChat, Baidu, Sina
Weibo, Alibaba
micaksica - 2 hours ago
> their middle class are now sending their children to
western schools and many of them will probably go back to
ChinaI disagree with the "middle class" being the ones
sending their children internationally. The Gini coefficient
in China is higher than that of the United States. Even if it
was the same income distribution, America's middle class
cannot afford to send their children to private schooling in
other countries.These people are not the middle class -- they
are quite far away in income away from the median of the
income distribution, even in urban areas. They are the upper
class. Maybe the lower upper class, but it's a stretch to say
they are middle class.
umanwizard - 2 hours ago
"Middle class", "upper class", etc. are not defined by
percentiles. Otherwise it would mean nothing when we say a
particular country has a "growing middle class".
ralusek - 1 hours ago
If they were defined by percentiles (i.e. certain
definitions of middle class dictate the middle 60% of the
population by income), you could still describe a
"growing middle class" as a middle class acquiring a
greater percentage of total income. While the population
of the middle class isn't growing, its buying power still
could be.
umanwizard - 1 hours ago
Well sure, but that's not what anyone means by those
words.
FabHK - 18 minutes ago
At any rate, GP is right that it's not the "growing
middle class" in China that sends kids to private school
in the US. It's the upper class.Make it about half a
million Chinese students in the US currently, so we're
talking about the top 1%.
dreamfactored - 11 minutes ago
Easy way to measure the middle class with your own eyes -
count the number of Uniqlo stores (or Starbucks type
places) and watch how fast the products are moving in them.
In major Chinese cities that has rapidly accelerated over
the last few years and they are now on a par with (or even
ahead of) any major Western city.
tanilama - 2 hours ago
There is WeChat, and it is far more successful than WhatsApp.
bad_user - 2 hours ago
With WhatsApp having over 1 Billion daily active users [1],
I find that really hard to believe, but assuming that all
of China's population is on WeChat ...My point is that
WeChat does not exist for me and probably never will.[1]
https://blog.whatsapp.com/10000631/Connecting-One-Billion-
Us...
[deleted]
princekolt - 3 hours ago
> China being the world's giant copy machine has worked very
well for those in power in China.Yes, but that's not OPs point,
I think. What I think OP means is that the west doesn't have to
worry (much) about China becoming the world's main innovation
spot, because with censorship, the best they can do is copy. In
a weird way, this is good for the western world.
FabHK - 2 hours ago
I think that's too optimistic. It seems to me that China
manages to control the vast majority of the population. If
you have technical expertise and perseverance, you can still
circumvent the GFW (great firewall), install WhatsApp, etc.,
and I think you will continue to be able to - but most people
in China don't.(It's a bit like pirating music and movies in
the west - you can still do it, but many people now use the
legal options (iTunes, Netflix, ...), because it's just not
worth the hassle.)But the CCP doesn't care about a small
elite knowing things.OP contends that suppressing political
discontent and censoring & controlling the communication of
the vast majority of people will necessarily impede
innovation and economic growth. That's not obvious to me at
all, unfortunately.
pangfandang - 3 hours ago
China is still very poor. The Chinese rural households have a
per capita income of only 9,892 yuan ? about $4 dollars a day.
and there's 680 million of these rural households still.Chinese
urban households have only a per capita income of 29,831 yuan ?
an abysmal $4,500 a year.https://geopoliticalfutures.com/china-
is-still-really-poor/And we see the effects of poverty on
education: "Surveys by Rozelle's team have found that more than
half of eighth graders in poor rural areas in China have IQs
below 90, leaving them struggling to keep up with the fast-
paced official
curriculum"http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/one-three-
chinese-chi...
notyourday - 2 hours ago
> And we see the effects of poverty on education: "Surveys by
Rozelle's team have found that more than half of eighth
graders in poor rural areas in China have IQs below 90,
leaving them struggling to keep up with the fast-paced
official curriculum"Just remember that we do not measure in
the US IQ these days because the results would be very
painful to look at for the poor of the US.
kwoff - 2 hours ago
The things you mention are easily turned around (I certainly
don't support the CCP, however).Maybe the Chinese are very
efficient with their money (try living on $4 a day in the US;
or what does $4 mean in China?), or don't need as much money
due to... a socialist system and/or, if you prefer, Hong Kong
Post. Maybe they've started to realize the dream of Star
Trek's "economy". ;)"Consider the aggregate IQs of rural and
urban/suburban whites [in the US]. During the 1970s according
to Wordsum-IQ data, the intelligence gap between whites
raised on farms and those who grew up in an urban/suburban
background was enormous, almost exactly equal to the
white/black gap. The data would indicate that a non-trivial
slice of the white farmboys of the 1970s suffered from
clinical mental retardation".
chaostheory - 3 hours ago
> China being the world's giant copy machine has worked very
well for those in power in China. Why not sustain that as long
as possible?Someone may correct me...1. having a more open
society results in more innovation, which results in more
economic development which allows the ruling class to become
even wealthier and more powerful globally2. currently, only
18-20% of China is middle class. About 78% of China is still
poor. If things slow down due to a lack of innovation,
historically things get ugly.
bitcuration - 3 hours ago
What he meant is it has worked well for a selected few in
China, as well as those international tycoon.
chaostheory - 3 hours ago
Yes I understood. I'm just saying that it can be even
better for those select few as well. i.e. they are leaving
money on the table
KGIII - 2 hours ago
This article has some very different numbers. Also, it may be
a small percentage but the total number of individuals is
huge. There's a lot of Chinese people, after all.Anyhow,
link:https://chinapower.csis.org/china-middle-class/As for
the numbers in that link, I'm not sure of the validity. I see
lots of different numbers quoted at different sites. I have
to wonder if it is accurate. A couple even put their upper
middle class at 35%.
chaostheory - 2 hours ago
According to your article (unless I misread it) the lower
class is 68% of the population. While it has greatly
improved, there's still a huge gap
marcosdumay - 1 hours ago
> having a more open society results in more innovationYep.>
which results in more economic developmentYep.> which allows
the ruling class to become even wealthier and more powerful
globallyThis one does not follow. It's probably false. Even
if China gains a ruling class that is wealthier than the
current one (what isn't a given), there is no reason to think
the same people will be there.
eurticket - 1 hours ago
> China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of
China's innovation and future growth.The same thing happens in
the U.S on another level. This isn't necessarily a case the
choking of the free flow of information and censorship, but I
think we've all seen a steady increase in the future being
delayed for the now.Around a month ago, there was an question on
HN discussing train automation and why it isn't already done as
it seems much easier to automate than other forms of
transportation. A first-hand account commented that it was
because unions have been fighting to block it to keep their jobs;
stalling innovation and future growth.
sytelus - 24 minutes ago
I don't think there is virtually any impact on innovations in
China because of western social media censorships. China is on
track to match US in AI research paper output, for example. Same
goes for other fields in medicine and manufacturing. Also, you
have to look at Chinese view point to understand why there is no
revolt in China around blocking Google or Facebook. The argument
that government has successfully made is that China is not ready
for democracy, the democracy usually means incompetent
politicians coming to power because of their ability to fool
people and that lot of developing countries which adopted
democracy have managed to make only a tiny fraction of progress
that China has made (for example, compare India with China in
metrics like GDP, research output or army).
Certhas - 3 hours ago
Alternative:Innovation happens within the context of Chinas
censorship and political regime. Blocking of entrenched western
competitors allows home grown solutions to spring up, and local
technological know how to develop faster.Capitalism and
innovation turn out to work within the context of an illiberal
society just fine. Especially as China avoids the mistake of
closing itself off to the rest of the world, but stays integrated
in the markets, as well as the academic exchanges.The Chinese
government doesn't stop high tech investment, but only blocks a
few select companies that have products that are, at their core,
easy to replicate (WhatsApp, Facebook, to a lesser degree Google)
at a sufficient level of quality.Rather than free markets pushing
towards a more liberal politics, the Chinese government develops
means to make the market optimize for political obedience
[1].Most people individually will consider themselves "free
enough", and not care about politics as long as the country is
well managed. Nothing stops you from starting to research or
trying to build self-driving cars in China [2]. China will
continue to manage to hire western talent for its firms [3] until
whatever skill gap still exists is filled.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System[2]
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/01/goldman-says-china-has-
talen...[3] https://qz.com/1062035/half-of-the-top-10-employers-
of-ai-ta...
latj - 1 hours ago
Yes. This one.
barrkel - 2 hours ago
Illiberal regimes are assumed to be kleptocratic. Historically,
it's rare to get a succession of just rulers when the
temptation to take is there, and there isn't a strong balance
of powers.There have been just rulers for a while, but the risk
of regression to the mean is ever present. We'll see how things
go.
nylonstrung - 1 hours ago
Another factor is that Chinese data privacy is much more lax
and platforms like WeChat that span so much of consumers' lives
have unparalleled access to data which will prove to be major
differentiation in the long term.
joe_the_user - 1 hours ago
An alternative to your alternative is the possibility that
China is going to have to keep narrowing the area of permitted
activity since the state has used this narrowing ie repression
as a way to deal with existing structural problems without
ending their root causes (problems ranging from credit
imbalances to over-capacity in state-owned enterprises to
growing inequality to corruption and beyond).China two years
ago or maybe China might permit enough market choice to allow
basic innovation. But appetite of the repressive apparatus is
not going to be sated and virtually all choices may wind-up
being politicized. What happens when a well-connected
individual asks you to invest-in/consult-for/etc their
enterprise? What impact on your social credit might it have if
you refuse?It is fairly well established that secrecy and
repression tends to breed corruption - when individuals have
untouchable power, of course they'll want to leverage that for
gain.
thriftwy - 2 hours ago
But you are also blocking innovators.> optimize for political
obedienceAnd put innovation in a grave. Without a gravestone.
dreamfactored - 1 hours ago
This analysis is spot on and sounds more like from someone who
has actually been in China. I'd add that China has no choice
but to compete through design and innovation as it is ending
it's phase as a low wage economy and has a growing middle class
to support (the 'copy machine' idea is complete nonsense
recycled by lazy journalists who don't have a clue).
a1371 - 2 hours ago
I think this alternative is more reasonable. Those who think
China is just a copying machine, underestimate the influence
the Chinese engineers had in the landscape of many industries.
The hoverboards (the type with wheels) became a household
product thanks to them.Conceptualization is not making
something actually happen, unlike what the patent-trolls want
us to believe. IoT was first proposed in the 90s, but did it
gain any traction before cheap Chinese prototyping components?
This bares the question, is it the West that has made IoT or
the East?
Sargos - 1 hours ago
Chinese engineers didn't make the hoverboard. If anything the
hoverboard example disproves your example as they just copied
the hoverboard from foreign companies.I know what you're
point seems to be even though you aren't communicating it
very well. I do think you're missing the fact that producing
goods cheaply does not make you a leader in tech. Besides
quick fads like hoverboards or fidget spinners China does not
have much traction with actually producing and selling
products. Things might be made in China but they are designed
by foreign companies and the vast majority of the profit
leaves the country.
JBiserkov - 1 hours ago
Have you heard about a certain drone manufacturer, DJI?
Sargos - 1 hours ago
I'm certainly not saying that there aren't actual Chinese
products that are selling. It's just not the norm. DJI is
a great company but not indicative of the general
ecosystem of China.
dreamfactored - 20 minutes ago
You are right that today DJI is exceptional and
represents the cutting edge - but that in itself is
indicative of what is normal in the future.
troisx - 1 hours ago
I think it's funny that you chose hover boards. I haven't
seen one in use in any major US city I've visited this year.
I'm sure some people still use them, but thanks to terrible
Chinese engineering that caused fires and failures, I don't
know anyone that's bought one after the first couple of
months that they were a fad.
majormajor - 2 hours ago
> Especially as China avoids the mistake of closing itself off
to the rest of the world, but stays integrated in the markets,
as well as the academic exchanges.So if the strategy is have-
our-cake-and-eat-it-too why does the rest of the world play
along? Corporate greed outside the control of governmental
entities?Like the parent and unlike the grandparent, I'm not
convinced "openness" of the sort that fosters innovation
requires liberal societal values. Openness in terms of not
being legally restricted from copying and improving on existing
products is the bigger one there, and China has this in spades.
It's similar to the industrializing United States in the 19th
century, which went from copying industrialized England to
surpassing it - would less free political speech have stopped
that?
rwallace - 2 hours ago
> So if the strategy is have-our-cake-and-eat-it-too why does
the rest of the world play along?As opposed to what? Economic
sanctions have a wonderfully consistent track record of
making things worse for everyone. China is too powerful for
'destroy the country and slaughter its people in a fit of
pique' to work the way it did in Libya and Syria, which is
just as well because that also makes things worse for
everyone. The one thing that consistently works well is to
maintain a free society and demonstrate a better alternative
by example. Okay, granted, we should be doing more of that.
mahyarm - 1 hours ago
Unique tit-for-tat regulations of Chinese companies of what
is shown in practice?"Our companies don't have freedoms
X,Y,Z vs Chinese corps in china, so Chinese corps and
investors will get the same special treatment in our
country too".
rwallace - 54 minutes ago
On an ethical level, you're hurting people (e.g. Chinese
workers) who had no part in the objectionable actions
that prompted this. On a practical level, are there any
cases in history where this has ever produced beneficial
results?
[deleted]
Mikeb85 - 2 hours ago
> So if the strategy is have-our-cake-and-eat-it-too why does
the rest of the world play along? Corporate greed outside the
control of governmental entities?Because having access to
even a fraction of China's market is a huge boon to any
company, as is having access to Chinese manufacturing. And
playing along with China has made their society far more open
and capitalistic, even if the ruling class occasionally
attempts to assert their dominance.China will progress at
their own pace, but however they do it has to be homegrown.
Simply overthrowing the ruling party like most westerners
want would create chaos, the transition has to occur from
within and at their own pace.
majormajor - 2 hours ago
Which sounds like the "corporate profit maximizing
controlled at higher-than-governmental levels"
explanation.I think the argument in recent coverage like
this is that it's no longer "has made their society far
more open" but "HAD made their society far more open." And
then it really exposes the financially-opportunistic,
rather than principal-guided-as-advertised, nature of how
the West deals with different countries like Cuba vs Iran
vs China vs etc.
Mikeb85 - 1 hours ago
Nothing the West does is principled, and the sooner
people realise this the sooner they understand why the
rest of the world reacts the way they do to the West.From
destabilising Libya and Syria, to taking in refugees, to
grandstanding with Russia, nothing is done for any set of
moral principles.Libya and Syria were 2 nations that
believed in Arab and African pan-nationalism, and tried
to assert independence and secularism in the face of
Western hegemony and Saudi-sponsored Wahhabism. Sure
they were dictators and unsavoury, but they also weren't
any worse than the many dictators the West has propped up
and sponsored over the years.For years many economists
and business leaders decried the high salaries, strong
unions and high cost of doing business in Germany,
Scandinavia, France and elsewhere, so they imported a
bunch of refugees under the guise of humanitarian
principles, and as a result they've broken the power of
unions, have unlimited cheap labour and are dismantling
parts of the welfare state (look at what Macron just
passed through in France).And finally in Russia, NATO has
them completely encircled, we overthrew several
governments on their borders and replaced them with pro-
Western ones (see "Colour Revolutions", or hell, just
look at Mikheil Saakashvili's career path), and then we
decry the fact that they finally took action for self-
preservation (they had a perpetual lease of the naval
base in Sevastopol which the pro-Western government
wanted to end, despite the understanding with Ukraine at
the dissolution of the USSR).And of course there's the
various covert CIA actions throughout the years which
have been declassified, it'll be interesting to see in
the next 40 years how current events are portrayed in the
future.Also, take a look at various developing countries,
and actions by the World Bank and western NGOs. Contrast
that with how China has courted those same countries.
I've been to countries which were decimated and abandoned
by the West, and where the only infrastructure projects
even happening are funded by China. I know a few people
from those countries which even went to study in Chinese
universities, and whose futures are going to be linked
with China. No one from that country has any illusion of
the West being 'good', as they were a former colony
abandoned by the West.
gaius - 1 hours ago
China will reach some predetermined level of technology that
The Party decides they are comfortable with, then close their
borders and just get on with being the Middle Kingdom in
splendid isolation. That is my prediction. I don't think they
feel the need to project power and remake the world the way the
US and previously the UK do/did. Maybe they will disengage from
the world and look spacewards.
princeb - 51 minutes ago
> I don't think they feel the need to project power and
remake the world the way the US and previously the UK
do/didthey already do. China wields strong economic influence
and pressure over her southeast asian partners, some of whom
need to be convinced to give up significant portions of
maritime control and territorial rights in an effort to
redraw the american sphere of influence in the south china
sea region, and further out to establish a new economic
status quo in africa and S. Am, where the traditional western
world's influence is more political than economic.
FabHK - 1 hours ago
Not entirely implausible. That's in a sense what they did
after they sent out Admiral Zheng He with a fleet of ships
and thousands of men in the early 15th centuryas far as East
Africa - they concluded "meh, nothing interesting there", and
shut down the whole
program.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He
westiseast - 1 hours ago
I'm a China hawk, but this is what has been happening and what
will continue happening unless something massively more drastic
than blocking a single minority foreign app happens.I think
there's a tendency for people to overestimate the importance of
foreign apps to Chinese consumers and to underestimate the
Chinese market. It's almost laughable that people think
blocking WhatsApp will make any difference to Chinese
people.eg., the Chinese tech/online market is so huge it can
sustain multiple competitors of its own in each sector - ride-
hailing, search, shopping, food delivery, maps, chat, mobile
payments all have massive players providing their own
competition and innovation.Genuine ground-breaking
technological innovation is rare. When it happens, it's not
like China won't get it (eg. touchscreens) because it blocked
Google. In a lot of ways, because Chinese consumers are so
quick to adopt new technology, there's sometimes more low-level
innovation/adaptation because companies can rely on new
apps/tools getting traction quickly.
chaostheory - 1 hours ago
> I think there's a tendency for people to overestimate the
importance of foreign apps to Chinese consumersThen why take
the trouble of blocking something so small and unimportant?
;)> eg., the Chinese tech/online market is so huge it can
sustain multiple competitors of its own in each sectorDoesn't
China have bigger aspirations than just the mainland?People
are missing the bigger point. I'm not talking about the
current state of things. This is about the future. Most
things are derivatives of other things. It's much harder to
create these derivatives without easy access to free flowing
data. People are saying, "It's fine, Chinese students just
study and work in the West and bring it back to China after a
few years." This is extremely inefficient. 1. there's the
monetary cost involved compared to a open internet
connection2. only a very small portion of the population will
have this opportunity compared to potentially millions more
with an open internet connection. 3. the amount of time it
will take for this data to come back to China is huge
compared to the instantaneous sharing you get with an open
internet connectionGetting more control isn't free, the price
is growth.
dreamfactored - 35 minutes ago
1. These are foreign-owned infrastructure platforms and
China is protective about its markets. Foreigners can't set
up businesses of any kind, let alone infrastructure.2. You
seem to assume the bulk of innovation is going to be
happening outside China and that blocking consumer access
to Western platforms would somehow inhibit a flow of
information to China. I'd disagree on both counts. The
Chinese government is acting as the word's biggest VC and
is also very practised and willing to take on long-term
transformation plans at the national level. Shutting down
foreign platforms only drives adoption of home-grown ones.
In addition, they are explicitly targeting a future
position as the world leader in AI. In the West I'd be
betting on the MIC over individual privately owned
companies to put any kind of dent in that ambition. I think
any moment where Apple or Google alone could outspend and
outcompete China in tech is gone.
chaostheory - 23 minutes ago
1. My question was rhetorical. It was in response to
someone saying that apps outside of China are unimportant
and small.2. No single country has a monopoly on
innovation. Consequently the sharing of ideas from
different locations and cultures is really important for
moving forward. You miss out on this benefit when you
consciously work to block it. Historically, the last time
China was this arrogant about isolation, it didn't turn
out too well.
ebola1717 - 6 minutes ago
China's not blocking out the sharing of ideas though.
Until a few months ago, Andrew Ng worked at Baidu!They
are isolating data, but hoarding data is a competitive
advantage in a way that isolating knowledge isn't.
narrator - 19 minutes ago
As for sharing knowledge goes, China has sci-hub.io and
westerners get to pay $35 a paper.
Nomentatus - 22 minutes ago
Innovation is a lot harder if you've grown up with someone
looking over your shoulder all the time. I think we're
going to pay that price, and that China will be more
affected. The times of real progress in human history are
few, the stagnant centuries are plentiful. But we'll see.
Snowden ain't coming home any time soon.
twelvechairs - 53 minutes ago
> Then why take the trouble of blocking something so small
and unimportant? ;)China would rather be in control of
tracking/surveillance internally, rather than let it be
done by foreign companies and nations. Thats all
FabHK - 1 hours ago
In FinTech in particular, China is years ahead [1]. WeChat
Pay had 100m users in 2014.[1] https://www.economist.com/news
/finance-and-economics/2171739...
Saad_M - 2 hours ago
Another alternative is that you may get a Galapagos island
effect where Chinese firms do innovate, but their innovation is
tied to the cultural and regulatory norms and not very
applicable outside of China. The same effect was seen with
Japanese cell phone companies pre-smartphone era.
diminish - 2 hours ago
If Chinese start an economic and cultural expansion which
includes PRing their culture, movies, tech, products and
building special relationships with developing world in Asia,
Africa, south American and Europe they may end up being the
globalization leader.
jacquesm - 1 hours ago
That is going to be tough. A whole generation of Chinese
see the west as cool and to be emulated. I have a hard time
seeing a whole generation of Europeans and Americans
wanting to emulate the Chinese, Japan, maybe. China, not so
much.
chaostheory - 56 minutes ago
As someone who is sometimes forced to watch media from the
mainland due to family, unless censorship is relaxed - this
isn't going to happen.Creativity is inhibited when you have
the cost of wondering whether what you've written or what
you'll say will land you in jail. This problem is
multiplied 1000x if you work in anything related to media
or art. Consequently mainland entertainment will always be
safe and boring. It's not going to see success like say
South Korean or Japanese media industriesIt's super obvious
that the state of the mainland China entertainment industry
is so terrible when you have most Chinese pirating foreign
media
andrioni - 1 hours ago
Although China has such a large market (and potential to
close the market if need be) that not being able to expand
outside of China won't be a problem for a long time.
bluetwo - 1 hours ago
An argument could be made that this is why their large
investments in movies and entertainment has failed outside
the homeland.
dv_dt - 2 hours ago
But the effect was the complete opposite with Japanese car
companies, which ended up being in massive competition with
the US industry. (with ups and downs on both sides)
akvadrako - 2 hours ago
And leading in many other industries too, like robotics and
video games.
nradov - 2 hours ago
After the initial round of product launches, most Japanese
car companies started designing unique products for the US
market. Many of the most popular "Japanese" cars in the US
were designed and assembled in the US, and aren't even
available for purchase in Japan. There are a few exceptions
like the Prius, but overall the "Galapagos Island effect"
is a good metaphor. It's a very isolated and unique market.
nihonde - 1 hours ago
The same is true in the other direction: Japanese
domestic auto sales heavily favor models that you can?t
buy in the US. Toyota has Crown dealerships that boast
about selling JDM-only models.
dv_dt - 1 hours ago
It's speculative how much of the Japanese company
design/assemble in the US is from trying to serve the
market more closely, and how much is from trying to align
with current or potential US trade restrictions. I think
one might argue that there is a similarity of motivation
in the US preserving auto industry capability in-nation
with China wanting to develop tech capability in-nation.
The motivation is similar, but the implementation is
different.I do agree there could be a "Galapogos Island"
effect, I just don't know how to predict which industry
will experience it vs the opposite. I wonder if someday
the US will be the Galapagos in that relation though with
the sheer size of China and it's possibility to trade
with near neighbours India and Indonesia.
starchand - 1 hours ago
100% this. And occasionally these apps out innervate their
western counterparts. WeChat is better than WhatsApp, Facebook.
[deleted]
smegel - 1 hours ago
> What the long-term effects will be: China's ruling class
further cement their power at the cost of China's innovation and
future growth.Yeah blocking a foreign competitor is going to be
terrible for innovative Chinese startups.
emiliobumachar - 3 hours ago
On the other hand, the West seems to take Copywright and Patents
much more seriously, which also dampens creativity a lot.(The
chilling effects from software patents alone seem to be very
large)I wonder how the effects compare.
alexasmyths - 3 hours ago
"their power at the cost of China's innovation and future
growth"Partly.The exception is that the Chinese are pretty good
at this stuff, and that 'blocking foreign companies' simply let's
local companies dominate.'SnapChat' and 'What's App' are no
innovation. For the most part.They are mostly just 'chat apps'.
That's it.Ok, Snapchat does a 'really good job' at the 'visual
storytelling part'. But China does not need that cutting-edge
level of social interaction for a few years until someone copies
it well.They'll do fine.China is actually big enough - and their
techies are talented/aggressive enough - that they can get away
with a lot of these shenanigans.You obviously have a good point
though.
FabHK - 2 hours ago
> 'blocking foreign companies' simply let's local companies
dominate.Yes - in particular, consider that China has more
people than North America and Europe together, so a Chinese
"domestic" firm has quite a market.
flexie - 3 hours ago
I think censorship is only part of the reason. Protectionism and
national security probably plays a role aswell. Look at the list
of websites they block:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websites_b
locked_in_mainland...Google, facebook, instagram, twitter etc.
Those are one-way streets that provide next to no jobs, little
tech transfer and no tax revenue to the countries they do
business in, but tend to outcompete the local rivals if left to
it, and are proven to provide a convenient surveillance platform
for American intelligence.It's surprising that any country would
allow that to continue unchecked. The Chinese solution is
certainly not great but I doubt the US would allow Chinese
companies to keep a daily log on the activities of most US
citizens and businesses. Or to replace entire industries like
advertising without providing jobs or taxes in return.
nashashmi - 1 hours ago
It gives rise to possible corruption, like local corporate
influences to block international competition.
dreamfactored - 18 minutes ago
Yes, I'm expecting Europe to start waking up to this
KGIII - 2 hours ago
I don't know that the United States has any legal mechanism to
prevent an online Chinese company from holding the top position
and doing what American-native companies do with the data. At
least I can't think of any such mechanism? Perhaps someone here
is a legal scholar?
RobertoG - 1 hours ago
If the last years have show us anything it is that the USA
government (and others) can create the legality that they
think more convenient.For instance, you can invent a new
category in order to avoid detaining people like criminals or
war enemies if none of the laws applying to those are
convenient.
KGIII - 1 hours ago
True, and I wouldn't put it past them, but I know of no
current legal mechanism for that. Emphasis on legal, of
course.It does make me wonder what they'd use for
justification - prior to the current administration. The
current administration would just use nationalism and
protectionism, I'd think. I'm not sure how the previous
administration would have framed it in order to make it
politically feasible.
fspeech - 56 minutes ago
The federal government can forbid any of its employees
from using the said service out of security concerns, a
la Kaspersky. With network effect this can be an
insurmountable challenge. Why should anyone try?
KGIII - 48 minutes ago
For the thought exercise, I suppose. With the already
entrenched services, it seems unlikely to change to whole
new services. At least not anytime soon.There were
services that came before, but they lacked the inertia
the current incumbents have. The userbase of Facebook,
Google, etc. is huge in the Western world. Even if
another company came along and built a great service, I
doubt it would see mass adoption due to the massive
numbers involved with the current providers.
dreamfactored - 15 minutes ago
If a hostile foreign company starts getting significant
market share, you can be sure that the local companies will
be seen to cry out for regulation and the government will
oblige
Fluid_Mechanics - 1 hours ago
I disagree - I think having some control over the self-
destructive urges of a population during times of economic
trouble is a positive thing. Several democracies with cancerous
social media networks are teetering on the brink of right-wing
proto-fascist parties as a result of the recent recession and
perceived immigration issues.The mob needs to be controlled for
progress to be protected.
phyller - 45 minutes ago
This would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic. You realize
this is exactly what every evil dictator in history thought?
They didn't wake up one morning and decide to be evil, they
were trying to do what they thought was right. In their minds
they were good, they were actually trying to make the world a
better place, according to their world view. They had great
plans, and the foolish mob didn't know what was best for them.
And one thing led to another.So what if the right-wing people
in charge had the same ideas as you? Several democracies with
cancerous social media networks have been teetering on the
brink of left-wing national socialism, the mob needs to be
controlled.What we dislike about fascists and their ilk is not
the right-wing or left-wing part, it is how they deal with
those they disagree with. Stalin was responsible for more
deaths than Hitler, Mao for more than Stalin, neither of them
right wing. If you were able to enforce what you suggest, you
would be worse than those you oppose.But you are right about
democracies devolving in certain times of stress. How about
this statement instead? "The mob needs to be inspired by the
self-sacrificial service of good leaders for progress to be
made"
afpx - 1 hours ago
Are there historical examples of states imposing social control
while also succeeding technologically? I can only think of the
counter examples.
chrischen - 3 hours ago
They're actually blocking to increase innovation and future
growth... of domestic products. Not being subject to a foreign
chat app monopoly (although Whatsapp wasn't even close to that)
is what they're trying to avoid.
627467 - 3 hours ago
This is not a new situation. I grew up in a more liberal part of
China and always thought their political situation was their
bottleneck for economic, cultural and human development. The
state of the world right now shows how I was wrong.And as you
mentioned, tightening of control by different governments around
the world seems to indicate that we have found a common trend and
its not the liberal one...
natural219 - 2 hours ago
I've been reading Westerners talk about how China is doomed for
10 years now. Every "mean" or disagreeable thing they do
seemingly spells doom for their regime, but they keep getting
bigger and more powerful.Maybe I should read less English-
language media on the subject.
AndrewKemendo - 3 hours ago
Completely agree that they will further cement their power, but
it won't be at the cost of innovation and growth IMO.China's
access to leading technologies and technologists is absolutely
unparalleled. The amount of Chinese students that are publishing
some of the leading CS and ML research from the best universities
and corporations worldwide is staggering when compared to all
other nations.China isn't 'Closing up' they are pushing people to
use the services that they control and have insight into.
Consider that Tencent, Baidu etc... all have major offices in SV,
Seattle, LA etc. Remember the story from yesterday about the
Chinese ADTech company giving $3M salaries? That's just
growing.Unless the US, Canada, France, Israel etc... closes the
visa program for Chinese workers Chinese companies will continue
to be relevant and innovative - and they will likely grow faster
with more tailored services because, China has the biggest
capabilities to mine user data - more than any other nation by
far.
pangfandang - 3 hours ago
> The amount of Chinese students that are publishing...That's
the thing. These are mostly overseas Chinese working for
US/European companies who have no desire to return to China.
Talk to any of them, and they're always concerned about the
status of their visa and are ecstatic when they become a
citizen of a democracy.> China isn't 'Closing up' they are
pushing people to use the servicesTencent and Baidu are used by
tiny tiny tiny portions of westerners> Unless the US, Canada,
France, Israel etc... closes the visa programThere's no need,
these Chinese students are staying and not returning to
China.By the way, since you think China is doing such a good
job of education: remember that Rural households have a per
capita income of only 9,892 yuan ? about $4 dollars a day. and
there's 680 million of these rural households still."Surveys by
Rozelle's team have found that more than half of eighth graders
in poor rural areas in China have IQs below 90, leaving them
struggling to keep up with the fast-paced official
curriculum"http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/one-three-
chinese-chi...
FabHK - 2 hours ago
> who have no desire to return to China.My understanding was
that increasingly, overseas students are returning to China?
(known as "hai gui", sea turtles)See e.g. http://www.chinadai
ly.com.cn/china/2016-03/18/content_239314...
AndrewKemendo - 2 hours ago
Tencent and Baidu are used by tiny tiny tiny portions of
westernersThat doesn't matter - they are focused on China and
Asia. To think that they can't innovate inside the borders
and with a significant number of people inside other
companies and abroad is just putting blinders on.since you
think China is doing such a good job of educationWhoa, never
said that. Mainland domestic policies for 1.7B (non official
number) people are mediocre at best.
chaostheory - 3 hours ago
> The amount of Chinese students that are publishing some of
the leading CS and ML research from the best universities and
corporations worldwideYes most of them are in the West. Most of
them also end up staying in the West too.> Unless the US,
Canada, France, Israel etc... closes the visa program for
Chinese workers Chinese companies... Consider that Tencent,
Baidu etc... all have major offices in SV, Seattle, LA
etc.Having a physical satellite office where only a few select
people have access to free flowing data is a lot more expensive
and inefficient compared to being able to just freely
communicate online. It's a bottleneck.
AndrewKemendo - 3 hours ago
Most of them also end up staying in the West too.Not true
anymore - maybe a decade ago but it's not the case today.Even
for the ones that do stay, in my experience with the Machine
Learning world they are going to work at Chinese owned or
financed companies like the ones I mentioned.[1]
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2017/04/17/chinas-
bes...
chaostheory - 1 hours ago
You're right about the brain drain no longer being in
effect. I suspect it's due to the new shortsighted trend
with US immigration policy: https://nextshark.com/u-s-made-
getting-visa-difficult-people...Still I feel it's still
more inefficient and expensive compared to just having a
free flow of information and data.
eyeareque - 3 hours ago
I used to think this way too until I went to china. The current
batch of US apps are also copies of earlier apps. Remember
chatting on bbses? IRC, ICQ, etc?China doesn?t need western
internet companies, they have a quarter of the world?s
population. Can you blame them for wanting to promote home grown
apps to build wealth within their country? Also, they like
control, why would you let an foreigner end to end encryption app
into your country? I don?t agree with their control but it?s not
my country.I?m surprised iMessage worked for me while I was
there. I wonder what consessions Apple had to give for that?
jzl - 3 hours ago
I?m surprised iMessage worked for me while I was there. I
wonder what consessions Apple had to give for that?From the
article:'Other services provided by American technology
companies are available in mainland China. The country
tolerates Microsoft?s Skype service for phone calls, which does
not provide end-to-end encryption and as a result is easier for
governments to monitor. Beijing also allows Apple?s FaceTime
service, which has end-to-end encryption but does not have a
WhatsApp-like feature allowing users to exchange secret codes ?
letting WhatsApp users combat what are known as ?man in the
middle? attacks.'
FabHK - 1 hours ago
Sorry, but is there any evidence that iMessage or FaceTime
has been MITMed? In China or elsewhere?(I wonder whether it's
tolerated because of Apple's small market share...)
vim_wannabe - 3 hours ago
The elite still probably likes to use iDevices themselves. Once
they get some other luxury brands going its time for the
concessions.
Dolores12 - 1 hours ago
>China's ruling class further cement their power at the cost of
China's innovation and future growth.Talking about innovations,
there are few areas where China is ahead of the whole world -
like AliPay and WeChat payment systems. I am wondering how you
gonna explain China's success when its GDP surpass United States
one.
princetontiger - 2 hours ago
China hasn't invented anything. Why would this change today? I'm
not sure why you're surprised.For a billion people, I think the
WSJ says there is maybe 1 or 2 patents assigned to the country.
[deleted]
lumberjack - 2 hours ago
Sorry, I have to disagree. How do you suppose more innovation
would have happened if instead of China, blocking US tech, they
let them have the whole market from the get go and instead of
WeChat there would be Whatsapp and instead of Baidu, there would
be Google? How is that more innovation?You can just look at
Europe.I'm not advocating any policies or supporting anyone. I am
just disputing the claim that free markets maximise innovation in
this particular instance.
wybiral - 2 hours ago
> instead of WeChat there would be Whatsapp and > instead of
Baidu, there would be GoogleI think that's the kind of thing
that the parent poster meant with this phrase:> The end result
is that China's fate as being > relegated to being the world's
giant copy machine
IncRnd - 1 hours ago
> The people who will get ahead in China in the future are the
ones who are somehow able to live outside of China to experience
new ideas.There are more people in China than in the United
States, Europe, and Russia combined. China already manufactures
your clothes, chips, computers, phones, and missile chips. I
don't think it's correct, given the world's dependence on China,
to say China is somehow behind the times (wrt computer
innovation).
davemp - 52 minutes ago
manufacturing =/= innovation
Asdfbla - 3 hours ago
The article mentions that, as in years before, the Chinese tighten
censorship when important party meetings or other events of
political significance come up. But does anyone know if the longer
term trend is toward more isolation of the Chinese internet (or
intranet, almost) or did the overall level of censorship stay
constant over the last few years?
dominotw - 3 hours ago
does this kind of thing violate any trade agreements between US and
china? should it?
logfromblammo - 3 hours ago
To my knowledge it does not, but it should.Censorship is a weak
attempt at mind control, which is a bit worse than chattel
slavery on the list of heinous things that humans do to one
another.Not only that, but in order to implement it effectively,
you must be omnipresent, with a finger in every ear and a hand
over every mouth. The concentration of power necessary to do
that is an open invitation to corruption.If I had significant
influence over US trade agreements, the degree to which ordinary
citizens had open and unfettered access to information would
factor into every last one of them.
frandroid - 2 hours ago
What trade agreements :D
AmIFirstToThink - 3 minutes ago
And Facebooks blocks free speech.In the race to control what people
say, think and see, between the governments and the mega
corporations, it's the people who are losing.China blocks
whatsapp... meh.
aorth - 3 hours ago
I would say WhatsApp could use domain fronting like Signal, but
that technique requires the adversarial government or ISP to decide
that blocking Google.com?or whatever large, important domain is
doing the fronting?is worth the cost to block WhatsApp. But China
definitely doesn't care about blocking
Google!https://www.bamsoftware.com/papers/fronting/
technologyvault - 3 hours ago
Over the past several months, I have had increasing difficulty
communicating with suppliers and business partners in China, who
have become very frustrated that they can only communicate via
Skype. All of their VPNs seem to have been shut down. They can't
access Facebook, YouTube, and now WhatsApp.Does anyone know of a
simple workaround that would allow someone inside of mainland China
to regain access to what's been blocked recently?
HillaryBriss - 2 hours ago
interesting.we live in an age where we should ask: what did
Microsoft have to give China's leadership to make Skype so much
more attractive to Chinese users?what influence/control within
the US can Microsoft offer up to other governments if the price
is right?
kawera - 1 hours ago
Not sure if this would work for you but still... After having a
lot of problems communicating with my business partners in China,
I bought a second (cheap, chinese!) phone and installed WeChat,
Weibo and a host of other apps on it. It became my chinese
"channel", completely isolated from my main phone. Working pretty
well so far.
llamataboot - 1 hours ago
Aside from the speculation about why, does anyone have any
speculation about HOW this disruption is occurring?
revelation - 3 hours ago
Does OpenVPN still work, in normal or PSK mode? I wonder if at some
point their filtering gets smart enough that they will just turn it
over to a whitelist, or worse, straying too far from the "norm
user" gets you a visit from police.
barkingcat - 3 hours ago
Regular openvpn sees disruptions. They sniff out the ip addresses
that sees vpn traffic and blocks them. You can get a different ip
and have it run (or do multi-encapsulated tunneling), but in my
opinion, nothing about this issue is technological. At the very
end, if you try to evade too many times, the government just
tells the telco not to sell any internet access to you. Or get
the police to show up at your residence.Regular Chinese citizens
get jailed for 50+ years all the time for doing things online. If
you are foreign, they can revoke your visa.
htrp - 3 hours ago
If you are foreign, in a first tier city, just pay for the
corporate internet (the unblocked version) in a lot of office
districts.The government knows that the expats aren't their
customer for censorship, they just want to make it inconvenient
enough for their citizens to get to the new york times or the
scmp.Have people actually gotten visa's revoked, that would be
a crazy escalation by the MPS.
terminalcommand - 3 hours ago
Even if OpenVPN doesn't work, ssh tunneling could get you onto
the free internet. I imagine that using Tor would certainly get
you into trouble in China. There was a statement in a documentary
from an ex Syrian Intelligence Officer that they found out and
tortured people who used Tor or other encryption methods.
Anonymity in the Internet at the age of surveillance states is
really tricky. One slip-up and your identiy might get
comprimised.
faebi - 2 hours ago
I was in China recently and my ssh tunnel got blocked to near
zero bandwith after some time. The way to go is a good VPN
subscription or shadowsocks on your own server.
htrp - 3 hours ago
OpenVPN doesn't work unless you do some crazy tunneling over
encrypted bank traffic ports (OVPN over SSL on 443)
darkhorn - 1 hours ago
USA should block Chinase chat apps too.
martin1975 - 1 hours ago
coincidentally, I just bootstrapped my own Tor exit node in the
USA... Hopefully Chinese and everyone else whose freedom of speech
is usurped can still hook up to the Tor network.
sparky_ - 2 hours ago
The most surprising thing to me is that WhatsApp was not already
blocked in China. I'd just assumed it would have been, given so
many other Western messaging apps are.
Keyframe - 1 hours ago
Is Viber working or is that on the kill list as well?
hw - 3 hours ago
I'm curious if this is really censorship or just a play to further
enhance the position of Chinese messaging apps' monopolies.Question
is why wouldn't the US block Chinese sites, apps and services like
WeChat, Alibaba, Baidu, etc?
FabHK - 39 minutes ago
Cross-border chats that previously used WhatsApp will now be
forced to switch to WeChat, and thus be subject to Chinese gov't
monitoring. Also leading to more international installs of
WeChat.If US blocked those sites, nobody would care, except those
with ties to China. However, it would be easy to circumvent with
VPNs etc., unless of course the US duplicated the GFW.At any
rate, that's rather antithetical to US values.
rubatuga - 3 hours ago
It makes sense, as a country you wouldn?t want US companies taking
over your social media. It?s only alarming from a US centric view.
corndoge - 3 hours ago
I hope this is a joke
zabana - 3 hours ago
He's got a point though.
zaro - 3 hours ago
Well it's very valid reason. Companies like Google and Facebook
do influence their users, and do define how they interact.So
banning the big tech companies is kind of protection against
this, as US influence can be really toxic for local businesses.
Even the EU starts to fight back against them.
Nition - 2 hours ago
Countries may not want it exactly but most will go nowhere near
blocking it. Or else every country but the USA would be blocking
Facebook.
abiox - 3 hours ago
should every country block every other country?
Posibyte - 1 hours ago
The statement doesn't seem imperative as much as it's just
generally relatable. In the end, it comes down to the values
and limits of each society as to how they approach and react to
something like Facebook and Google's massive influencing
powers.
islanderfun - 2 hours ago
Protectionism for all.
samlevine - 2 hours ago
> It makes sense, as a country you wouldn?t want US companies
taking over your social media.Not having to build your own
Facebook (and WhatsApp, etc.) means that you can build something
else that can (eventually) compete internationally.China isn't
being irrational here, but there is a tradeoff between growth and
security.
WhitneyLand - 1 hours ago
Why can't steganography be used on top on the Chinese government
endorsed app (WeChat)?It wouldn't have to use images, it could use
any data in the system or even spread it amount mutilple apps
within WeChat.By the way, a couple suggestions if you haven't used
WeChat:1) There is a really nice, canonical one pager out there for
explaining WeChat to Americans, I highly recommended it.2) Its
important to note that WeChat despite its name, is miles away from
being a simple chat app. It's an entire platform, almost OS like,
complete with its own apps within an app. Their platform is
incredibly rich, to the point that any significant business has
some services available or at least a presence.Before going to
China on business I hadn't heard much about it, and only knew it
existed because of some Chinese friends. However if you are
planning a trip to China, go ahead an install it now because it's
ubiquitous.There is an English version and last time I checked it
was reasonably up to date, although seemed to be missing a few
features.