HN Gopher Feed (2017-09-23) - page 1 of 10 ___________________________________________________________________
How We Grow Junior Developers at the BBC
100 points by chaghalibaghali
https://medium.com/bbc-design-engineering/how-we-grow-junior-dev...___________________________________________________________________
rokhayakebe - 3 hours ago
Going from Jr to Sr in an organization is "easy/ier." Making the
same progress as a freelancer/contractor is more difficult.
k-mcgrady - 1 hours ago
I disagree. I would struggle to get many senior dev roles in
companies due to gaps in my knowledge (e.g. TDD, Agile or
whatever PM style they use). As a freelancer/contractor however
I can pick roles that only require skills I'm very good at and
can therefore charge senior rates.NB: This is if you were
defining junior/senior based on pay. Hard to tell from your
comment if you were.
bjornlouser - 3 hours ago
"I wanted to make sure that my first job post-university would be
somewhere where I would feel happy and work not on my own, but with
an agile team ..."It's interesting that any young developer would
regard the micromanagement that comes with agile as a plus.
walshemj - 1 hours ago
Agile or RAD done well can be very good but it does require more
experience developers than say waterfall and the PM scrum leaders
really need to know there stuff not just done a weeks course.Not
sure that throwing a junior developer in the deep end with agile
is always good idea
nerdponx - 3 hours ago
Do they just mean agile in the sense of "adaptable and fast-
moving"?Also, for some (many) junior anythings some
micromanagement is a good thing, especially for a college grad
with little "real world" experience.
QAPereo - 3 hours ago
BBC levels of management are good for no one other than the
management.
[deleted]
UK-AL - 2 hours ago
He worked at a waterfall digital agency.Literally anything is
better than that. The description of working a digital agency
matches mine exactly.Your given pictures and told to make it work
as fast as possible. With no input into the actual experience.
sudhirj - 3 hours ago
> micromanagement that comes with agileIt's a sad day when the
ideas behind the agile movement have fully become the Agile
System (tm) in engineer consciousness. The word used to denote a
style of working, not characterised by micromanagement or by a
Scrum Master (tm, again) telling people what to do, but
ironically by leaving behind dogma for a loose collection of
principles that worked effectively for the team and the problem
at hand. The word has been lost, though. Using the word 'agile'
now evokes more derision than enthusiasm or excitement.
ismail - 1 hours ago
Curious why would one think agile is micromanaging?
ErrantX - 1 hours ago
Because its the common mistake large companies make when
implementing agile.As a C-level you want to know the roadmap
for the next 12 months and waterfall gave you that. Agile can
be a bit terrifying (ofc it shouldnt be), therefore certain
people (SAFE, looking at you) have worked out how to make
agile look like waterfall from above. Basically by building
tiers of process and making the demon-scrummaster (rather
than teams) all powerful.The BBC is, as i understand it, a
notorious example.
loblollyboy - 1 hours ago
agile only pisses me off when I see 'experience working in an
agile environment' as a desired skill in a job posting. More of
a buzzword than a principle.
cortesoft - 1 hours ago
What style of management has less micromanagement?
closeparen - 2 hours ago
I'm a relatively junior developer, and I work on a team that I
would characterize as agile (though we don't use that word). I
have broad latitude to write what I want to (with peer review of
code, and peer + stakeholder review of RFCs), at whatever pace my
manager and I agree is reasonable, to fulfill broad business
goals.I wouldn't last long under the micromanagement of being
handed an architecture and software design by someone else, and
being told to just churn it out.
tweedledee - 2 hours ago
By grooming them?
vegancap - 1 hours ago
This is an exciting read for me as I start as a Software Engineer
at the BBC on Monday!
ArbitraryString - 1 hours ago
Good luck with your job! What sort of languages/technologies will
you be working with?
dopeboy - 3 hours ago
I train new technical hires at Fortune 500 financial institutions
so this article struck a chord with me.One of the key points that I
leave my cohort with overlaps with the OP's point about fresh
perspectives. The hires I'm with are up to speed with the newest
languages, newest frameworks, and newest tools. I encourage them
over and over to try to bring that knowledge into their roles.
eosrei - 54 minutes ago
> I worked in an all-senior team once. Nobody admitted not
understanding something. Everyone wrote overly-complex code just to
1-up each otherSorry to hear about that experience. Those aren't
senior developers. There's no room for learning when you think you
know everything. Senior developers mentor, simplify, document, and
admit when they don't know the answers.
spaceseaman - 31 minutes ago
> Senior developers mentor, simplify, document, and admit when
they don't know the answers.Sadly this is far from my experience
as well. It's likely a few toxic work environments.Not to hijack
your comment but I would like to offer a specific example I've
seen of toxic behavior from senior developers. Many don't
actually read the questions you ask of them or trust your
knowledge. It's very similar to attitudes I see on Reddit,
HackerNews, or StackOverflow:"Hey I'm having a bit of trouble
getting this to compile / run / there's this weird error I'm
encountering. I read the documentation and based on that tried X,
Y, and Z, but none of those solved my problem / my problem
appears somewhat different." (Where each of X, Y, and Z are
somewhat long explanations of what was tried)."Did you try X?""Uh
yes I did" (then to be polite I repeat my explanation of doing
X)"What about Y?"You see what I mean. Especially in text, I find
that some senior developers can't be bothered to actually read
what someone else said. So if you're worried that you're a poor
senior developer, I recommend you actually try and read what your
younger colleagues say and ask of you. And especially trust that
they are being honest with you. Don't assume that someone is
lying or that they're wrong on the first pass - it's
condescending, frustrating, and usually a waste of time. If you
hired someone in the first place, you should be allowed to assume
a bare minimum of competency and if for some reason that fails,
you can always question them after the fact. I think it's a
result of our engineering mindset to assume absolute idiocy in
every case and then work our way up, but I think it's more
productive (and especially better leadership) to assume that your
subordinates know what they are doing.In the context of an online
forum like this, I think it's best to do the opposite: assume
idiocy and work your way to competency - simply because we are
all anonymous and don't know each other. The actual workplace
should be treated differently though. People always perform
better when you put your trust in them.
dom96 - 4 hours ago
Thanks for sharing.In regards to the BBC however, and on behalf of
my SO, I am curious how to get your foot in the door as a script
writer (or as something related to this). Does anyone have any
insights/tips/contacts that they would give to someone interested
in becoming a script writer for the BBC?
KGIII - 1 hours ago
First, I have no idea how to answer your question. I did do some
writing, but nothing famous and not scripts. I was a journalist
to earn money while I was went to the university.But, your
question made me curious. It really does look like the link in
the sibling post is as valid a link as you're going to get. I'd
suggest your SO put the work in and make use of all the resources
at that link.Having said that, write and network. Certain jobs
aren't acquired by the usual methods. There probably is no long
interview and application process. Instead, your SO will have to
do something to get noticed.There are probably lots of ways to
get noticed that involve luck. I'd not depend on luck. I'd make
opportunities to get lucky, however.I did find this link, it
seems like a good link and the information passes the smell test.
Here:https://www.theguardian.com/careers/insiders-guide-to-
becomi...I think the networking idea is probably one of the
biggest ways to get noticed. Join local writer's groups. Go to
workshops. Get to know people. Instead of contacting them and
saying, "Hey, I want a job!" Have them contact someone, probably
having made some good contacts first, and say, "Hey, I really
could use some advice."I'd suspect that getting contacts is the
first step. Do the research. Make use of the site they sibling
post gave you. Do what they suggest, and then some. If there is
an event for screenwriters, be there. If there is a pub they
frequent, be there.I'd not immediately pressure for a hire, or
even to show samples. I'd listen, learn, ask as many questions as
I could, and I'd make it a point to listen. People love to have
an audience. So, when developing this network, be an active
listener. Active listening is a very, very underrated skill to
have. People love to talk, encourage them to do so. Pay attention
to what they say. Ask good questions. Ask questions that invite
them to share their knowledge. Most of all, truly listen and take
their advice to heart.Write... If you want to be a writer, write.
Write a lot. Write all the time. Write about anything and
everything. Write stuff that people will see, even if it is just
forum posts. Write constantly and cover a wide variety of topics.
Write about what you know, and use your writing as an excuse to
learn more so that you can write about that.Put yourself out
there. Find people who will honestly give you advice. This means
you're going to need people who understand both good writing and
the subject matter. You can find those people online or in the
real world. Friends and family shouldn't be your first choice.
They aren't always able to be unbiased. Nobody likes to tell a
loved one that they suck and their dream is hopeless because they
have no skills.If they do suck, that doesn't mean they can't
learn - so keep at it. Keep writing, keep taking classes, keep
going to creative writing groups, go to any writing group that
will have you. Write ad copy for free. Find a website and edit
their work and then send it to them.Build up a portfolio. Even if
it is just a blog, get your stuff out there. They want to see
someone that can be prolific and good. They want to see someone
who is capable of putting out consistently good work. They want
to see someone who has motivation to complete projects.So, write,
write, write... Learn, learn, learn. Network until your schedule
is so full that you barely have time to live a normal life.And be
ready for rejection. Be ready for a lot of rejection. Be ready to
sacrifice your dream and be willing to write for a different
company. When rejection happens, and it will, don't give up. When
they reject one script, ask them why and then make the script
into something that fixes those problems.I'm sure scads of people
also want to write for the BBC. They not only have to be better
than the rest, they have to have more drive than the rest. They
have to stand out and be noticed. They have to have someone who
is rooting for them on the snide of the company. The BBC has to
want then, make them want you. Make them aware that not taking
you means that their competition will take you. Make them know
that you're an asset that they don't want going to a different
company. Make them know that you can solve a problem and fills
niche that nobody else can fill better than you.Some of this is
covered in the link I gave you. I could go on but this is already
long enough. If they want to work there, they are going to have
to work at it. Use the resources available and be ready to work
harder than your SObhas ever worked in their life,
DanBC - 4 hours ago
http://www.bbc.co.uk/writersroom/
dom96 - 1 hours ago
I was hoping for something other than this. This is something
that I am already aware of.
ErrantX - 1 hours ago
Find an agent. 100% best method.Except for that the only way
is the "hard" way, requiring some luck, through things like
writers room.
ljf - 1 hours ago
I was at the BBC for a few years. I can't talk for much other
than Children's BBC, but there many of the people involved in
that area of production had also worked in a range of roles
in the BBC and migrated over to that position. Alternatively
they had worked writing and creating outside of the BBC,
possibly in passion projects but likely on other paying gigs
- possibly with agencies. But generally they were people who
were able to point to a large body of previous work.I don't
think I ever saw a role like 'script writer' on the internal
job sites.Don't forget that a large amount of the production
is out of house - through production companies of varying
sizes.What I loved about working there was the genuine
passion for content and the audience that most people there
had - good luck if they can get in.
jdietrich - 1 hours ago
Write, pitch, repeat. Working as a runner might help you
network and understand the industry, there are various
mentorship schemes, but ultimately nobody gives a shit unless
you've got a great script. You don't need permission from
anyone to write a script and send it to a
commissioner.There's a mile-long queue of people who want to
be a script writer, but a much more exclusive club of people
who actually write and pitch scripts regularly. As the great
Ronnie Coleman said, "everybody wants to be a body builder,
but ain't nobody wanna lift no heavy-ass weight".
user5994461 - 4 hours ago
Isn't the BBC a company where the only senior positions are as a
contractor, charging 3 times the amount of their permanent
counterpart for much less hassle?I am not sure if the author is
trying to write a nice PR piece or is so inexperienced that he
believes in all this corporate bullshit he's repeating. ^^
M2Ys4U - 4 hours ago
>Isn't the BBC a company where the only senior positions are as a
contractor, charging 3 times the amount of their permanent
counterpart for much less hassle?Not really, no.
DRW_ - 4 hours ago
I'm not the author, but I recently joined the BBC as a software
engineer and haven't found all that many contractors at all, the
ones I have are in regular non-senior positions.It may be the
case for 'talent' and management of TV projects (for example),
but in the tech departments - your assertion, in my experience
seems to be far from true.
Zenst - 3 hours ago
Well many parts of the BBC (tech wise) got outsourced/tuped circa
2003, saw lots of good people go and the whole of new media (web
aspect) got decimated back then with cuts.I know this as I worked
for the BBC at the time.
KGIII - 1 hours ago
Tuped? I'm unfamiliar with the term, so I googled it and came
up with TUPE. Is this correct:https://www.out-
law.com/en/topics/employment/business-sales-...