HN Gopher Feed (2017-09-06) - page 1 of 10 ___________________________________________________________________
The fertility of the older mind
195 points by ALee
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170828-the-amazing-fertility-o...___________________________________________________________________
okreallywtf - 5 hours ago
One thing I've been trying to do lately is constantly be learning a
new juggling trick. For years I just did what I could already do
(which wasn't much, but 100% more than people who don't juggle at
all), but I've been enjoying breaking down coordination barriers
with new tricks (even simple ones) that are similar to things I
have done but just different enough to mess my mind up.
hathawsh - 5 hours ago
As a child I was obsessively aware of other people's opinions of
me, so I was afraid to make mistakes. Today, I am much better at
putting myself in the learning mindset because I have learned a
basic truth: learning is essentially the same as temporarily making
a fool of myself, but in a safe place. That's how we all learned to
walk, talk, and read, after all. If we can learn such complex
skills as those then we can surely pick up a lot more skills, with
effort.I wish I had understood that as a child. I tried to learn to
dance and act, but I mostly failed because I didn't really put
myself out there. I did learn to sing thanks to choirs. I got into
computers partly because all my mistakes were completely
private.There's no reason I can't continue to learn new skills. I
just need to shed my ego and try things without reservation.
DarkTree - 55 minutes ago
I think a lot of people can relate to this. I was always afraid
of asking questions when surrounded by people more knowledgable
than myself. I didn't want to appear stupid, or ignorant by not
knowing something I assumed I should have already learned. I
later realized that it makes so much more sense to bite the
bullet and ask the question the first time. The longer you go
pretending to know something, the more embarrassing it becomes
when you have to eventually ask what it is later. The people who
do this are the ones who appear knowledgable in later situations.
WalterBright - 3 hours ago
> As a child I was obsessively aware of other people's opinions
of me1. Young people care what others think of them2. Middle aged
people don't care what others think of them3. Old people realize
that nobody thinks about them
charlieflowers - 1 hours ago
I was told when I get older all my fears would shrink. But now
I'm insecure, and I care what people think.- Twenty One Pilots
epalmer - 36 minutes ago
I'm almost 64. I will get my CSP (Certified Scrum Professional)
certification soon. I am learning Python and taught myself Java
at 52-54.I can run circles around some of my younger associates
in terms of critical thinking, design thinking, and integrative
thinking. My job requires this and I do it whenever needed.
randcraw - 1 hours ago
It's been said, "You learn nothing from succeeding".To grow, we
must learn how to fail well. I agree; the goal is to succeed or
fail egolessly: efficiently and productively, without regret,
even do it eagerly as one explores a new path... then failure
becomes merely a lesson in what not to try, before you try again.
suneilp - 22 minutes ago
I see it was a matter of how you view your self-worth in the face
of a mistake. Society in general likes to put one down for making
a mistake regardless of how small or insignificant.And one's
inner dialogue tends to be the nastiest critic and chips away at
motivation when learning something new.It doesn't help that many
humans tend to put down others more easily if they perceive them
as weak regardless of similar or different identity. Being of the
same age, gender, ethnicity, etc. doesn't matter. And people
strive really hard to reframe their perspective to view others as
weak too.
gopalv - 7 hours ago
> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren?t so
scared about making mistakes.Struck a chord there - because I had
come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice
activities in public.Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to
learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning
to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less
of a struggle than trying to learn ice skating in my mid thirties,
when everyone at the "cheap skate night" is just gliding by with no
effort.There's a certain embarrassment which distracts from the
task at hand. And being good at several other things, which are
more immediately satisfying to do also factors into the decision to
spend time learning something new which you'll never be as good as
the ones who started when they were 5.Right now, I'm struggling to
learn enough spanish to converse with my kid & observing language
learning first-hand, in third person. The words just come out
without any particular boundaries in production - grammar,
conjugations, gender, whether it is the right word.Everything is
optional and the only discouraging response is skipping the
conversation and trying to ignore it.
pbhjpbhj - 2 hours ago
Children are used to being bad at stuff, they don't expect to be
good straight away.Adults avoid stuff they can't do and also
expect to be better at stuff because they're adults. I teach clay
craft/pot throwing - for some reason adults think they can come
along and make/throw a vase on their first go. Like expecting to
rock up and make a wedding cake with no prior experience at
baking.I'm self taught, my first timers manage pots at a level
that took me about a year to achieve.We see first hand at
painting sessions the birth of inhibition in art - parents who
tell their child the painting they're doing is _wrong_ because
the adult thinks they (the adult!) can do it better. The child
isn't allowed space to simply express, to learn the movements of
the brush and feel of the paint, to make "mistakes".
koolba - 7 hours ago
Learning a language (spoken, not programming) is similar. If
you're willing to sound like an idiot with a bad accent,
constantly messing up words and parts of speech, it's easy to get
immersed. If you're self conscious it's significantly more
difficult.
mseebach - 5 hours ago
There's probably a corollary to that: first you have to get
comfortable, but to get really good (fluent) you probably have
to get pretty self conscious. It seems to me that most adults
learning a new language will retain a fairly heavy accent and
some clumsiness more or less permanently (while of course being
perfectly articulate) unless they work really hard to get rid
of it.
kzrdude - 2 hours ago
A related thing: I'm skeptical of the popular claim that it's
impossible to lose an accent as an adult. I think adults can
still learn to speak very close to a native accent, if they
keep on trying.
photojosh - 45 minutes ago
I learned Spanish as a kid/natively, and stopped speaking
daily at 17. Now mid-30s, I've lost a significant chunk of
my vocabulary, and there are adult topics of conversation
with vocab I haven't learned.But I went back to South
America for work in 2009, and apparently I just sounded
like someone from a different Latin country. Someone even
asked if I was French.
yosito - 6 hours ago
It's not just about being comfortable with messing up, even
when you make no mistakes, if you want to lose an accent, you
have to be willing to give up your sense of your own voice/"the
way you talk" and try on a new voice in which you sound
completely different than you're used to.
uptownfunk - 4 hours ago
Agreed, I've since realized that most foreigners are charmed by
the very act of making a sincere effort to speak their
language. So really, there is something to gain in even
speaking the language quite poorly.
[deleted]
moretai - 6 hours ago
Self Consciousness is the bane of my existence
pacaro - 6 hours ago
My step father, I his 60s, took his schoolboy French, that he
hadn't used in over 40 years, and turned it into a decent
conversational level simply by not caring about how bad he was
but just going for it.
sjg007 - 7 hours ago
Some kids are less inhibited and scared but some aren't and they
need active help to get through the anxiety. I think there is a
genetic component at play because how else is that learned
behavior.
delinka - 5 hours ago
As a parent, you can inhibit your children as toddlers by
telling them "no!" all the time. Then, when it comes time to
learn or be social, they now have inhibitions to
overcome.That's not to say there's no genetic component (my
son, $deity bless him, has this anxiety/fear of lots of things
- we're honestly not sure if we're unaware of some
environmental cause, or if he's fighting genetics...)
sjg007 - 3 hours ago
Sure, lots of "noes" might reinforce anxiety but I think some
kids are immune to it.
okreallywtf - 5 hours ago
It struck a chord with me too. I'm finding in my 30's a lack of
fear (or an ability to manage it) that I didn't have when I was
younger that makes me want to seek out new experiences and learn
new things more in some ways than I did when I was in my teens
and 20's (and more "pliable"). This research makes me feel good
about my chances and about the benefits that could come with
learning new things.
expertentipp - 6 hours ago
I cannot resist from a sarcastic comment. I find it cute when
Americans claim they are "learning a foreign language". Currently
I live in a 5th country. Each of them had completely different
language, only two were from the same language family. I had no
knowledge of English until I had been ~18.
skrebbel - 6 hours ago
For all your language skills, I'm not sure you know what
sarcasm is.
expertentipp - 4 hours ago
Ha! Vocabulary is my Achilles ankle!
flanbiscuit - 6 hours ago
> Currently I live in a 5th country.You have the advantage of
living in those countries and being able to immerse yourself in
the language. In the US we have be more proactive about
learning if we truly want to get fluent. There's less
immediacy about knowing a 2nd language here. It's not great,
I'm not defending it. Just listing a possible advantage
Europeans have over us.
chrononaut - 3 hours ago
> I find it cute when Americans claim they are "learning a
foreign language"I am not sure I understand the point being
made here or through some of your other replies. What does your
experience being in many different countries with different
common languages have anything to do with Americans claiming
they are trying to learn a foreign language? I find it no
different than anyone else claiming they're trying to learn a
foreign language?Are you implying Americans cannot learn a
foreign language or that it's more difficult due to the lower
chance of exposure to those languages, lack of necessity to
learn those languages, or lower probability of encountering
others whose native language is not English? If so, I would
likely agree.Oddly your supporting statements counter what I
describe because I do not know your nationality and you could
be American, having moved when you were much younger.
fnovd - 6 hours ago
Keep in mind that Americans live in a country where you can
drive for hundreds of miles in any direction and still end up
somewhere where English is spoken. We can hop around from state
to state and opportunity to opportunity without having to take
the time to learn a new language. The US is not Europe.
oh_sigh - 4 hours ago
Also, english being pretty much the defacto world language
doesn't help matters. If you only speak Dutch, you can only
talk to 23M people. If you only speak English you can only
talk to....2B people?
Mediterraneo10 - 5 hours ago
Yours is a typical American reaction that suggests that
others learn foreign languages only because they might have
to communicate after driving a short distance. In fact,
Europeans have been able for centuries to communicate with
neighbouring countries in their own language or rudimentarily
known lingua francas without having to expend effort of
picking up a new language. And yet, they still often decide
to learn a new languages because of cultural interest in that
country (films, music). Mere intellectual curiosity is a
driver for a lot of people, there is no reason that that
can?t apply to the USA as well.
pasquinelli - 3 hours ago
plenty of people do try to learn a second language. that's
why apps like duolingo are popular. but language is a
medium for exchange, and if you have no one to practice
with i don't think you'll really get it. of course, i only
speak english myself.you would really trust yourself to
translate a film after picking up a language without ever
speaking it with anyone?
jdcarter - 5 hours ago
Plenty of us do learn other languages purely out of
curiosity. I've been studying Japanese for the last 9
months for that reason. However it's difficult to immerse
myself in spoken Japanese because, where I live, I have to
go out of my way to meet up with native speakers--that's
the point the parent poster was making.
Mediterraneo10 - 4 hours ago
> Where I live, I have to go out of my way to meet up
with native speakers--that's the point the parent poster
was making.The point would still be wrong. Plenty of
people learn a foreign language without the ability to
have much contact with native speakers. Eastern Europeans
have been keen on picking up Latin American Spanish, but
it?s mostly watching telenovelas or falling in love with
music from there, not actually going to Latin America.
People learn all kinds of foreign languages from all the
way across Europe, with the only actual interaction with
native speakers being maybe a holiday once a year or
less. A lot of language learning plays out through
exposure to media, and with the internet, Americans have
no less access to media than Europeans (or, as another
person here notes, East Asians).
soundwave106 - 2 hours ago
But you have to be motivated to learn the language. Set
aside the people who love learning for learning's sake
(which is not everyone). With English being the default
world language, and American media outside the Internet
also typically in English, well, the motivation to learn
a language probably isn't quite as strong here.The
biggest advantage here would come from picking up
Spanish. Live in a place with large Hispanic populations
and you'll find plenty of media over here in Spanish in
certain locations. It actually wouldn't be too difficult
to immerse yourself somewhat. It's not surprising
therefore that the greatest percentage of American
bilingual speakers have Spanish as their other language
(http://www.gallup.com/poll/1825/about-one-four-
americans-can...).I agree that media exposure can play a
huge motivation. However, at least in the past,
mainstream media in the United States was almost always
originally in English. To use one example, in many other
nations, foreign languages (English for sure at least)
appear in pop radio hits constantly. In American pop
music, in contrast, foreign languages rarely appear --
when present, they usually were one hit wonders, eg your
"Sukiyaka", "99 Luftballoons", and "Amadeus" type songs.
Obviously there are a few exceptions even "just outside"
that mainstream circle (example: Rammstein) but "the
norm" of US pop radio in the past was pretty much 99%
English.I do wonder if this will change a little. I am
hearing more foreign language lyrics in American pop
songs (mostly Spanish); some foreign media forms seem at
least cult popular (anime is an example of a foreign
medium with a decent sized American subculture); and as
you point out, the Internet allows access to far more
media forms than you could get previously.
HarryHirsch - 3 hours ago
Indeed. People learn Latin, of which there are preciously
few speakers.
ericd - 4 hours ago
It might also be that your culture values that heavily as a
good thing for its own sake, whereas ours doesn't as much?
My impression is that the English Commonwealth countries
don't place much value on language learning (I could
certainly be wrong on that front).
Karrot_Kream - 5 hours ago
I'm guessing the OP is being downvoted, but I'm not sure
why. OP is right.Even in East Asia, plenty of people learn
Japanese to watch anime, Chinese to enjoy Chinese classics,
medieval stories, CPop, Korean for KPop, etc, etc. South
Asia has a very rich intellectual tradition in dozens of
languages, and a thriving (albeit scrappy) industry of film
in local languages. Don't forget the time-honored trope of
learning English through Hollywood movies.America is unique
in that it has created a culture that doesn't connect with
the outside world at all. American sports are American,
American TV shows are American, American movies come from
Hollywood. It makes being multilingual in America a much
rarer feat.
ericd - 4 hours ago
Do you know if multilingualism is more common in England,
Australia, or New Zealand? I've got the (maybe mistaken)
impression that it's just not valued as highly in the
English Commonwealth as in other countries.
HarryHirsch - 3 hours ago
There's always been a love-hate relationship between
England and France. Some Englishmen are Gallophiles,
others avovedly not. Note: this is about French culture,
its literature and way of life, of which French language
is a part, not French language itself.
logfromblammo - 3 hours ago
I see it more as an intense sibling rivalry between
Britannia and Marianne. Sometimes they have scratching,
hissing, spitting cat-fights. Sometimes they sneak into
the other's bedroom and surreptitiously fart on all the
pillows. And sometimes they just have each other's back,
with no questions asked.
cgag - 3 hours ago
I think the effort to reward ratio is much lower if
you're a native English speaker and especially an
American.
kevmo - 7 hours ago
I am 33, and I have paid a lot of anecdotal attention to what seems
to keep my brain fresh, i.e. able to still learn new skills at a
rapid clip. Just by way of credentials: I was a successful lawyer
for a few years of my 20s (rising to level of federal law clerk),
but then taught myself to program and have been working as a
professional programmer since shortly before my 30th birthday.
Even though I am on the older side of the programmer market, my
career has been great, and I've been able to rapidly rise in the
ranks. I also know a fair amount about design and business
strategy now.The secret seems to be: Practice. If you want to be
able to do new things, you need to always be doing new things. I
am always trying to learn something new - mentally and physically.
For example, I am very right-side dominant in my body, but I have
lately been trying to open more doors with my left hand, throw
stuff at the trashcan with it, etc.Always be doing at least one new
thing in your life if you want to be doing new things for the rest
of your life. It is OK to fail at a new thing! You just have to
admit failure, pat yourself on the back for your courage, take
stock of what went right and wrong, then pick a new new thing to
do.Relatedly, I have noticed that some people who I considered much
smarter than me as a teenager often no longer appear to be, and I
believe it is because they stopped trying to grow new types of
skills and thus let their brains stagnate.It is hard to do
unfamiliar things, but so worth it.
kirse - 5 hours ago
learn new skills at a rapid clipThe secret is definitely to
practice, I've found an even bigger shortcut is to
convince/pay/beg an expert to be your coach or mentor. And once
they are your coach, demonstrate that you respect their feedback
by obeying when they tell you to update your approach.As they
say, perfect practice makes perfect.
chousuke - 3 hours ago
I'm 31, and I started learning to draw a bit over a month ago.
Progress is slow, but it's been visible.The kicker was when I
realized that talent doesn't really exist; talent is built. The
sort of people who are "naturally" talented at drawing and arts
are likely to be people who are naturally more intuitive (rather
than analytical) and will spend lots of time just grinding away
at things instead of trying to understand them intellectually
until they don't need to understand it anymore. Sort of like a
physically fit person would just climb over an obstacle while an
analytical but untrained person might get stuck trying to figure
out a "smart" solution.I consider myself much more of an
analytical person, which is partly why I am learning to draw. I
want to strengthen my intuitive side as well.It doesn't hurt that
the theory of drawing (which includes the physics of light, human
psychology and understanding of form) is actually quite
interesting. Practicing my muscle memory today also lead to a
small epiphany when I realized that instead of focusing on making
an ellipsis with my pen, I have to focus on my shoulder muscles
and get them to move my arm elliptically and drawing then simply
happens.If you're interested in learning to draw yourself, check
out drawabox.com
egypturnash - moments ago
> I have to focus on my shoulder muscles and get them to move
my arm elliptically and drawing then simply happens.For what
it's worth this is a pretty good habit to learn, as it's more
likely to keep you safe from the carpal tunnel syndrome fairy
if you do a lot of drawing. Good drawing form involves keeping
your wrist static, and doing all the motion with your arm
and/or fingers.Learning this feels weird but is well worth it.
The best way I found to pick it up is to work with a pencil;
instead of holding it nearly perpendicular to the paper, hold
it almost parallel to the paper, with your fingers on the far
side/top and thumb on the near/bottom; you should get a big fat
line from the side of the point touching the paper. This is a
grip that all the grizzled old pros swore by when I started
working in that industry, and it's helped a ton.
billti - 2 hours ago
That's an interesting theory. I've always played a lot of pool,
and am good at math/geometry. Yet when I over-analyze a shot
and think about what I'm about to attempt, I miss far more
often than if I just rely on muscle memory/pattern recognition
and take the shot without too much thought.I think the
understanding of angles, intersection points, transfer of
energy, etc. helped me practice as a novice (as well as helped
me stay interested). But to get really "good" at something, you
need to work at it until most of the skills involved are almost
subconscious. (Which aligns somewhat with what I recall from
"Thinking fast and slow", which I thought was a great book).
DamonHD - 5 hours ago
You kids today! I just turned 50! B^>Yes, always be trying to
do at least one new thing. At the moment I'm on a new old thing,
enhancing a Web site with very slightly more daring CSS, and also
getting better performance from my solar-powered RPi2 than I seem
to be able to get from CloudFlare's state-of-the art monster
operation! B^>
jbreckmckye - 3 hours ago
I'm 30 and a senior developer. But I started out with an English
degree and had planned to be an academic. In the intervening
years I have been a technical writer, a business analyst, a QA
and even had a ill-judged stint as a recruiter. Oh, and I was a
UX designer for a year, albeit not a very good one.Now I am
thinking of becoming a lawyer or civil servant, but worry that I
may no longer be mentally agile enough to learn a new skillset.
So I'm very glad to read this article!Incidentally, as someone
heading the opposite way to yourself, do you have any advice /
warnings for a developer thinking about law?
randcraw - 1 hours ago
I know little about the career of law, but at age 60 I know
something about seeking change. My advice: make sure you are
shooting at a real target (a specific job that already exists)
and not just in the general direction of a job title that
sounds attractive.Many attorneys seem to find that their
abstract / academic "love of the law" doesn't translate into a
tangible form that they can live with day to day. Many
physicians discover the same thing -- the daily practice of
medicine is not as charming as their inchoate notion of
"healing the sick" suggested.Concretely, after working in
software for 30+ years, I'm grateful every day that the field
is big enough that it let me evolve from one domain to another,
and explore multiple skills and interests over the years. If
I'd been trained only narrowly, perhaps as a PhD virologist, I
doubt I would have been pleased at the slim variety of work
opportunities that I was prepared to pursue.
jbreckmckye - 1 hours ago
You touch on a real concern and I'm not going to make any
moves until I can put it to bed. Law would be a huge
investment and I need confidence I could be happy in a
variety of legal careers.That being said, my motive has
always been the work rather than the domain. Of course, law
is very prestigious and sounds very impressive, but what
really draws me is the chance to research, think and write in
a way I haven't since university.I originally wanted to be an
academic, but the conditions and the realities of the work
are quite depressing. Programming pays well, and I think I'm
good at it, but my real skills are more verbal. I actually
quite like the idea of combing through complex documents and
trying to judge what's truly salient. For whatever reason it
just seems my brain is wired to enjoy that kind of work. It's
the same kick I got from literary criticism, poring over
texts and slowly building an argument from a mass of
details.It's a hunch, anyway. Would you suggest any ways to
validate it?
[deleted]
wavefunction - 7 hours ago
You're 33, you're not on the 'older side of the programmer
market.'If anyone tells you that, I suggest you take a long hard
look at who they actually are.
slavik81 - 3 hours ago
Do you have a source for that? As far as I can piece together
by going through the 2016 and 2017 StackOverflow developer
surveys, the median professional developer appears to be ~30yo,
with ~8 years professional experience.
wavefunction - 2 hours ago
Don't you think there might be some implicit bias relying
solely on a StackOverflow survey?My source is that I know
plenty of developers working in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60,
which is anecdotal for you but reality for me.
pcurve - 7 hours ago
Very true. I work at Fortune xx company and there are
literally hundreds of developers in their 50s and early 60s.
(ones older just retire). Many of them are head down workers
reporting into managers who are 10-15 years younger (who
probably don't make any more)
kevmo - 7 hours ago
When I was a junior programmer at 30, it sure felt like I was
on the older side. :)It's a separate subject, but there is a
lot of age bias in the field.
Cerium - 6 hours ago
I guess you have to be in the right place. I'm 28, and the
most junior person on my team by at least 5 years in age and
8 in experience. It is great, since I have so many people to
learn from.
joncampbelldev - 5 hours ago
I'm 28 and I wish I were the most junior on the dev team.
Being a "lead" developer is fun, but I wish I had more
people who I can actively learn from just by being around.
pc86 - 4 hours ago
There are plenty of places where the "senior" developers
have more than 5-6 years of experience.
konschubert - 1 hours ago
I know how you feel. I'm 26.
allsunny - 5 hours ago
The best time to have learned something new was 10 years ago. The
second best time is now.
matt2000 - 7 hours ago
As I get older it gets much much harder to feel stupid at something
new when you know what it feels like to be very good at something
else. This I feel is the key reason people stop picking up new
skills, it feels miserable to be back at a beginner level and so
much more satisfying to do something you?re proficient at.However,
if you can recognize this and reset your expectations then you will
probably find you have extensive general skills to bring to bear
around learning and self discipline. Those skills will make the
actual learning process overall much quicker compared to learning
your first few major skills, it just might not feel like it.
DamonHD - 5 hours ago
Actually I read your opening line the opposite way you intended,
and agreed with my version of it!I find myself less stressed by
inevitable failures as I know that I have already proved myself
in a number of ways, so anyone who infers idiocy from my learning
stumbles may themselves be the idiot... %-P
yodsanklai - 5 hours ago
One issue I'm having when learning new things (at 41) is memory. I
don't feel less sharp than before, but I have a harder time to
recall things that I studied a few months before. For instance, I
regularly take coursera classes but one year later, I don't
remember much. I'm trying to take more notes, hopefully it'll help.
twoquestions - 2 hours ago
Do you exercize? At 25 my memory was great even after a week of
sitting on my ass, but now that I'm 31 my memory goes straight to
Hell if I don't break a sweat at least twice a week.Copious notes
helps too :)
adamstockdill - 8 hours ago
Education has no age limit.
HarryHirsch - 7 hours ago
Hiring does, though. It's clear that a compliant workforce is
considered a greater necessity than a competent one.
ConceptJunkie - 6 hours ago
And a cheap workforce is considered a greater necessity than a
competent or compliant one.
sireat - 6 hours ago
I think the article paints too rosy a picture for older minds.Yes
you can learn things as you get older but the bar for your
achievements gets lower and lower as you age.Let's take chess:
There are no cases of a novice starting to learn at the age of 25
and becoming a grandmaster. You need to do some of that deliberate
practice at an early age. I suspect the case is the same for
math,programming, violin playing etc.Interesting thread on the
topic is here: https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/who-is-the-
oldest-p...It is not just the case of kids having more time to
dedicate to a skill/hobby because there are people of independent
means who pursue chess at an adult age and still fail to advance.As
you get older your ability to truly master a skill declines.That
does not mean that you can't become a productive programmer at age
60 or 70.It just means that you will not achieve Bill Joy ||
Fabrice Bellard || John Carmack levels of proficiency and I suppose
that is ok. :)
okreallywtf - 5 hours ago
I think that becoming a "grandmaster" of anything is probably
outside of the scope of this research as that is a whole other
bucket of worms (probably).And who knows how the prevailing
wisdom that you can't teach an old dog new tricks affected the
number of people who chose to try to become a grandmaster? Maybe
your priorities change when you are older and it has nothing or
less to do with raw ability?
newforice - 5 hours ago
> Yes you can learn things as you get older but the bar for your
achievements gets lower and lower as you age.Here's to hoping you
aren't in a hiring position.
michrassena - 4 hours ago
I doubt there are many cases of people starting to run at 25 and
becoming Olympic sprinters either. And for the majority of us,
that's ok. Learning when one is older is a quality of life
issue. It's not about being the best at anything, but rather
expanding one's horizons, keeping life fresh and interesting,
finding something to challenge oneself and providing motivation
and fulfillment. Those opportunities are available to almost
anyone who is healthy regardless of age. Mastery is secondary,
and it's a bit defeatist in my opinion to not start something new
simply because it can't be mastered. Many activities can be
enjoyed without achieving full proficiency.
Karrot_Kream - 5 hours ago
> Let's take chess: There are no cases of a novice starting to
learn at the age of 25 and becoming a grandmaster. You need to do
some of that deliberate practice at an early age. I suspect the
case is the same for math,programming, violin playing etc.Most
perfect information games are _extremely_ memorization biased. A
huge part of gaining the initial skill to compete at a decent
level is memorizing thousands of positions, openings, and
mistakes by other players. It's only after that that the real
play begins.So it's no surprise that older people who don't have
the time to invest into this cannot reach the upper echelons. At
25, over a third of your intellectual life is already gone. The
raw time you have to learn the basics and experiment at the upper
levels is cut in a third.Bill Joy himself only started
programming in graduate school.